Charge and Potential Charge ?.

Played our first Impetus 2 game the other week.This and the rules raises some questions :

1.Page 28, 5.7.1 regarding charge speed. It states ' If a unit fails to contact due to Evasion, the use of Charge Speed Doesn't lead to Disorder and can be used again to reach an enemy ( not necessary [ necessarily ] the one who evaded ).Also a Unit can fire after having used the Charge Speed ( if not in contact with the enemy ).

I thought that if an enemy unit had the option to evade or fire, it was better to declare a Potential Charge on it, as this would mean that you could then have the option of making further moves if the enemy unit decided to Evade rather than remain in position and Defensive Fire ?.Also you wern't Disordered if the Enemy unit Evaded and you failed to contact with just a staight forward Charge declaration.Usually the Charge/Melee being the final actions.
The above paragraph from the rules seems to contradict my explanation above. Maybe the rules are just badly worded ?.However it could lead to confusion !.

2.Example 3, Page33/34 is also confusing !.First it says that S could react with Opportunity Fire in the situation.This is surely defensive Fire instead, as the French Knights have declared a Potential Charge on S, i.e. a charge move to contact S, not just a move through S's ZOC with no chance of contacting S ?.
Later on in the example it states that the French Player changes his Potential Charge to a Real Charge, because the enemy S unit has decided to Evade and the French Player realises that he has the possibility of contacting the S unit because he can now use the charge movement bonus to add to a Charge Move to reach the evaded S.Surely this isn't allowed is it ?.

3.Can you declare more than one Potential Charge, if the first Potential Charge fails to contact the enemy unit ?.

4.One last Question !.Can you add the charge movement bonus to a combined wheel charge movement ?.See Page 26, 5.3.1 Wheels .It states there : ' They can also charge with such a combined move '.

Cheers,
Steve.

I hope members can understand what I am trying to explain, even if long winded !.If anyone can clarify the above I would very much appreciate it !!.

Hi
Here are my thoughts (which may or maybe not be correct) on your questions.

1. Yes this is a little confusing. I think 5..7.1 is mainly talking about charge speed for potential charges, as 5.10.1 clearly states the charge is the last action (besides melee) you can preform unless it is a potential charge.

2. I agree with you this is defensive fire.

3. yup I think you can, but as the 1st potential charge is now considered a normal move and another charge (2nd move) would require a discipline test at the end (at -1 or -2 if out of command).

4. I can't see why not.

These are all just how I read the rules and may not be correct hopefully someone else will also post here with their thoughts.

But remember with 4, the last bit of the charge must be straight, you cannot wheel into contact

This is how we've been playing these...

1 Charge speed can be used multiple times in trying to contact the enemy (so it seems)

2 If S fail to evade or are caught trying to evade there's no defensive fire they melee only, evaporate and the chargers continue on their merry way for the rest of their move (taking any damage with them... if any).
This is confusing in the rules and has been the centre of a few healthy discussions in our group but think this was the final 'wash up'

3 Yes

4 Yes. Provided as Jim says the last bit is straight ahead.

Sooo.

(2) say S evades the first potential charge and then the French Knights charged a second time using their bonus move. The Skirmisher player releases he has little chance of out running the knights a second time so he could try defensive fire (DT) followed by melee and death on contact right?

Think he's already used up his reaction response for that turn with the first evade, don't think he can change his mind and decide to now have a go at defensive fire.
Think if you want to defensive fire it has to be decided in the first charge (potential charge)
It's a good question and certainly not particularly clear that's for sure. Like I said we had lots of discussions around this topic.

If you look at the Actions and Reactions Table on pg. 22 you will notice that Evade is missing as a possible Reaction to Charging. On pg.23 it says "Some Units (not Groups) may, as an alternative to the reaction, try to evade (par. 5.6.)" It seems to me that Evade is not a Reaction and in Roundie's example the S could decide on the second charge declaration to stand and do Defensive Fire (assuming that S hadn't already Reacted earlier in the turn.)

Of corse if this is correct and you can react with defensive fire then would the following also be true?

This would be the knights second move to contact so the defensive fire DT would be at +1.
Where as if you chose evade a second time the DT would be at -1 for second evasion?

Roundie wrote:Of corse if this is correct and you can react with defensive fire then would the following also be true?

This would be the knights second move to contact so the defensive fire DT would be at +1.
Where as if you chose evade a second time the DT would be at -1 for second evasion?

This is why we have the Forum and why I participate in it. This is one of the main ways I learn the rules. Just to say that I have been mistaken on this Forum and the old Forum many times. Only Lorenzo can make ruling on this.

First we need to know if the premise is correct. It does seem on the face of it that if units can evade and then offer Defensive Fire on the initiating unit moving a second time there should be a penalty for doing so.

My personal view is the there should be another modifier on Defensive Fire (-1) for units that evade and then engage in Defensive Fire in a subsequent movement phase in that activation. So essentially the two would cancel each other out.

yes I would agree with that

Tarty might be right though. Once the sequence begins the evading unit may only be able choose to attempt to evade in the same activation. We will have to see what Lorenzo says.

I think the confusion stems from the phrase 'as an alternative to a Reaction' first paragraph 5.12 Evasion....so it's not a 'Reaction' per se but - takes the place - of a reaction.
Taking this into consideration if you go back to 6.7 Defensive Fire last paragraph it says 'Note that Defensive Fire, being a reaction, can be done only once per turn'.....so the skirmisher has chosen the 'alternative to a Reaction' option and evaded. I'm guessing he's used up his one and only 'Reaction' for that turn but can continue to evade if he chooses.

I could be completely wrong Lorenzo may come in and shoot this 'interpretation' down in flames

Do you remember Tarty having these kinds of discussions around Impetus 1?

Gaius Cassius wrote:Do you remember Tarty having these kinds of discussions around Impetus 1?  

Oh yes

Also....now that FLs and Ts can evade the thought of getting a chance of defensive fire after the first evade would make this 'manoeuvre' quiet a game changer

hmmm
The second paragraph on page23 is worth a read regarding this.

A unit cannot react and evade as a consequence of a single enemy action. A unit can both react and evade as a consequence of two different enemy actions (e.g. move and shoot or move and charge)

Ok, I try to answer to all these questions (maybe with mmore posts) starting from the latter.

Evasion is not a reaction per se so it can work differently but at the same time is an alternative to a reaction. So to an action you can respond with a reaction OR with the evasion.


Potential charge is the way to go when trying to charge Units that can evade. If a target Units doesn't evade (as a choice or as it fails) then the potential charge turns automatically into a real charge.

As for the example of CP charging S.
S can choose to evade or as an alternative to stay and try to perform defensive fire (note that the same options are allower for T and FL with shooting capabilities. But also for CM or CL, still with shooting capabilities)

S chooses to evade (as the Player doesn't want to loose his Unit). Evasion is performed, but as CP declared a potential charge, CP can make another attempt.
Now S has still 2 choices. If try to evade will have a -1 modifier as this is the second evasion. If decides to try defensive fire no modifier here as the reaction is linked to this later action (charge) of CP. The +1 modifier is when the charging Unit makes 2 or more movement actions to contact due to distance.

That makes sense Lorenzo.

Ok so looks like you can evade and defensive fire after the evasion if required ?

So to be clear there's a +1 in the attempt to perform defensive fire as the charger had to use two moves to make contact in the example but there's no deduction or firing penalty for having evaded (moved) that turn?

Another example. An English longbow unit evades a charge by French knights, the knights make a second move and charge in. The longbow unit now decides to defensive fire and not evade again getting a +1 in the attempt roll (2 moves) but does not suffer any shooting penalty for having evaded essentially moving backwards that turn ?

Just want to be sure this is correct.

No, I don't that's correct Tarty. The evade and the potential charge essentially cancel each other out. So in your example the Longbow don't the get +1 for defensive fire because the CP moved twice to contact.

So the longbow get +2 for a T defensive unit firing & -1 for shooting at charging mounted, which is an end total of +1 to the reaction test?

There's no penalty for the longbow having evaded (moved) is what I'm curious about ?

yes no penalty for defensive fire as this is a new reaction to a new charge and not linked to the past evasion.

At least that's how I understand Lorenzo post above.

What about the CP do they test for disorder having moved twice I wonder (potential charge followed by final charge)?

As I see it the longbow unit that evaded and has decided to stop and attempt defensive fire gets a +3 Discipline test.
+2 if T firing
+1 if the Charger is using more than one move to contact.

Pretty good. Add to this the chance of the charger failing his second move DT going in disordered and it's a nasty combination.

Oh yeah I miss read the modifier list. It's only -1 if your mounted NOT firing at mounted I was completely wrong there.

Sorry