Opportunity charge

Not sure how the players got into this situation unit 1 declared charge against unit 3. As CM in unit 2 ZOC they wanted to opportunity charge 1. Ruled they couldn't because unit 1 was not not entering ZOC as already in it. What followed was a what if scenario.
Our query is if unit 1 was more to the left so not in ZOC then charges so enters ZOC so unit 2 can opportunity charge.
1/ Does 1 complete its charge then unit 2 opportunity charges.
2/ Can 2 intetcept 1 before it hits unit 3.
3/ can unit 2 wait until entirely behind flank so claim flank attack. If so as 1 would still be moving would pro rata moves this not really part of rules makeup.
4/ Any other thoughts?

Just some further details here that might influence thinking. Unit 1 (CM) was disordered so could only move forward or back at 90 degrees to Unit 2 (CM), not disordered. Therefore no discipline test to Opportunity charge if deemed to be allowed. Unit 1 if moving, was not moving directly away by going forward or back, but possibly if moving back could be deemed to be leaving ZOC in unaggressive manner. However if moving forward is moving in a ZOC with a trajectory unable to hit Unit 2, so possibly should trigger opportunity charge. (However nothing is stated in the rules under 4.1.4 on this) There may be some confusion on my part from Impetus 1 on this!
As EJC says we ruled that opportunity charge was not allowed by unit 2 as Unit 1 already in ZOC and rules only state troops entering INTO ZOC.
If Unit 2 is allowed to Opportunity charge in either instance does this negate any movement by unit 1 as Unit 1 then become the reactors.

4.1.4 seems clear to me. None of the conditions necessary for an opportunity charge exist in the above scenario. 

We would not allow an Opportunity Charge by Unit 2 on CM1. 
Unit 2 can charge in its own turn of course if CM1 is still there.

Agreed: the ZOC example following 4.1.4 shows under '3' that a unit that charges across a ZOC to contact a third unit does not violate the ZOC of either.

(although I'd prefer that the example showed Y not also contacting B … )

Without that example I'd say that bullet 4 of 4.1.4 was a bit loose on whether the intent was charge the ZOC unit or not but the example confirms its any charge to contact that ignores ZOC.

The underlying principle is "entering" into a ZOC on trajectory that won't contact the unit. If you start already in a ZOC and move such a manner there is no violation. I guess the principle is that you get one chance to claim a ZOC violation for movement. In Impetus 1 the rule was that a unit that starts in an enemy ZOC had to clear the ZOC box by the end of the move but it seems in Impetus 2 that condition has been removed.

Thanks for the input. Although it might have looked like a ZOC violation as we could see that none of the 4 conditions seemed to apply it was ruled as you say no ZOC violation.
Its the second part of my original post would also like your comments on. So when moving from outside then right across ZOC so clear violation what is the procedure for opportunity charge. For example can unit 2 intercept the CM before it reaches unit 3, or can it wait until entirely behind front of CM and claim flank attack?

Regarding the point at which the opportunity charge takes place, Rule 5.7.3 states that one can interrupt the movement or charge of an enemy unit. This does not precisely answer the question, as it does not mandate that the opportunity charge take place at a particular point during the charge of the enemy unit.

I would rule that the opportunity charge can take place at any point along the trajectory of the enemy unit's charge, from the moment the ZOC of the friendly unit is violated, until the enemy unit is about to leave the friendly unit's ZOC (but still in the ZOC).

However, in the example above, while the friendly unit could wait to perform the opportunity charge until the enemy unit has completed its movement (assuming that the enemy unit was still in the ZOC at the time of the opportunity charge), the opportunity charge would not result in a flank attack. This is because the unit utilizing opportunity charge did not start the charge entirely from behind the line formed by the continuation of the front of the target unit (see Rule 7.2.3). Rule 5.7.3 notes that opportunity charge is subject to the same limitations of a regular charge.

Your views roughly same as mine except maybe if opportunity charge is delayed and starts when unit is entirely behind flank maybe flank attack as it starts its charge entirely behind enemy flank. Rules seem at bit unclear exactly how opportunity charge is carried out.

I suppose it depends on whether one views the initial invasion of the ZOC as the event that actually triggers the opportunity charge, which charge would take place when it would have created a non-flank attack (even if the friendly unit completes its opportunity charge after the enemy is completed its movement), or whether the opportunity charge does not occur until the friendly unit actually moves, even if it had the ability to move earlier.

Would you allow the declaration of the opportunity charge after the enemy unit completed its movement and is in base contact with another friendly unit?

Re last para i probably would allow opp. charge when chargers have completed there turn. Would allow timing of opp. charge at discretion of controlling player.

ejc wrote:
Its the second part of my original post would also like your comments on. So when moving from outside then right across ZOC so clear violation what is the procedure for opportunity charge.

It might be a ZOC violation but 4.1.4 is clear* that if the 'violating' unit contacts a unit with the movement, it does not provoke an opportunity charge. So the question does not arise.

If there is no 'third unit' and the 'violating' unit moves right across the ZOC of a unit then as far as I can see that unit can choose its moment to declare an opportunity charge with a clear conscious. If it manages to achieve a flank attack, all well and good - the sheer audacity/stupidity of the first unit deserves punishing!

Once upon a time we would have prorated the movement but now I think its a simple case of waiting for the best opportunity and then testing to see if you can capitalise on it. You either don't charge or charge at the most beneficial moment.

*as clear as any Impetus ruling anyway

I agree with Gaius and Zippee above that there is no Opportunity Charge in this case, as 1 is not entering the ZOC.

If 1 had started further left (outside of the ZOC) then Opportunity Charge would have been possible. It has always been my understanding that the choice of when to interrupt the opponents move has been with the interrupting player, so I would allow a Flank Attack. But that might just be a hangover from other rules / editions stuck in my mind!

Under point 4 'Any other thoughts', there is always the possibility of one of my favorite cards, Tactical Card 8 'Charge by Opportunity'. But that is nothing to do with ZOC's.

Not sure if i follow your logic Zippee in your 1st par. you seem to be suggesting that opp. Charge doesn't arise because the CM have contacted enemy unit 3 even though it entered unit 2 ZOC? Are you using Lorenzo's 3rd example as justification page24. I read that example that its not a ZOC violation because its contacted unit A 9but because Y is on a trajectory to hit B. I tend to go with Aurelius that unit 2 could react. I do agree with you any putting themselves in that position deserves to get slaughtered.
Aurelius like your suggestion of use of card not actually used that one. We use max. of 3 per side but have banned use of cards for re rolling CT.

ejc wrote:Not sure if i follow your logic Zippee in your 1st par. you seem to be suggesting that opp. Charge doesn't arise because the CM have contacted enemy unit 3 even though it entered unit 2 ZOC? Are you using Lorenzo's 3rd example as justification page24.

Yes bullet 4 of 4.1.4 and the text of example 3

4.1.4 wrote: 4) Enter with no possibility to charge due to direction taken (don’t consider obstacles or Units).

and

example 3 wrote:In diagram 3, Y follows a trajectory that would allow to contact B even if in fact it will first impact on A. In this case there is no violation of the ZoC of B (or of A).

Note that 4.1.4 does not say "charge the unit with ZOC" just "charge". And that example 3 only talks about contacting Unit B after contact with A - I think trying to show two things in one example.

I did say that it was "clear" by Impetus terms - I wish there was no contact (or mention of contact) with Unit B in example 3 but there is. But 4.1.4 just says "charge" - I read that as any charge not just a charge against the ZOCing unit

My 2c worth.

If CM 1 is 'starting' it's (straight forward) charge move in ZOC of unit 2 then there's no violation, and unit 2 can't opportunity charge without a 'Charge by Opportunity' card.

If CM 1 started the charge outside the ZOC of unit 2 then it would be a different story.

Now understand your logic so all depends on whether 4.1.4 4th condition 'enter with no possibility to charge' is referring to just the unit with the ZOC.
I suspect Lorenzo may be thinking it refers just to that unit because his 3rd example refers that there is no ZOC violation
of B because of trajectory of Y and not because Y has charged into another unit. I could be wrong

Yes, as you say ejc.
Basically the logic of the ZoC is to avoid Units "dancing" (manouvering) in front of the enemy as they know is "their turn" and the enemy cannot react.