Medieval Scots 900-1054AD

ok, so in few words I think we have to see if Theigns were more defensive (long spear) or offensive (higher Impetus) troops.

I would suggest the later, so drop the about useless Long Spear.

OR give both options, but ALL the same.

yup - depending on period?

Hi all, so I finally got my hands on a copy of Extra Impetus V to see how the later feudal armies were laid out. Its changed my thinking somewhat about this list. I agree that the combination of long Spear and Shieldwall was too much, but am resolute that Long Spear is a very Scottish thing at this time. I've added the ubiquitous Highlanders as well and dropped the Javelinmen as I'm not convinced about their use as this stage of history for the Scots.

Early Scots (900-1054 AD) Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes 1 to 2 CM Noble Horse * 10 5 2 C 3 18 0 to 1 CP Norman Exiles 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous 0 to 3 CL Border Horse 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin 2 to 8 FP Thegns * 5 5 3 C 3 17 Long Spear 4 to 24 FP Spearmen * 5 4 1 C 2/3* 10(7) Long Spear 0 to 4 T Highlanders 6 5 2 C 2 17 Short bow B 0 to 4 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Viking Allies (Ostmen) 0 to 2 FP Veteran Huscarls * 5 6 3 C 3 21 Shieldwall 2 to 6 FP Huscarls * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 15(11) Shieldwall 0 to 8 FP Hird 5 4 2 C 1 10( 8 ) 0 to 1 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B or S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Galwegian Allies 0 to 1 FL Nobles * 8 5 4 C 2/3* 16 Impetuous 2 to 12 FL Galwegians * 8 4 4 C 2/3* 12(9) Impetuous 2 to 4 S Kerns 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling Command Structure Poor (0 pts) Long Spear nullifies the Impetus Bonus for mounted troops Thegns may form Large units with Spearmen if they are in the front rank You can upgrade the front rank of each Large Unit of Spearmen to: FP Veteran Spearmen * 5 5 1 C 2/3* 14 Long Spear Notes for Viking Allies: The FP can form Large Units with Units of the same kind (Veteran Huscarls can create Large Units with other Huscarls) You can select only one Allied contingient

 

In regards to the discussion around the Foot Thegns, I've currently left them as better spear, but I would feel comfortable adding in a line with the option to field the Thegns as FP Thegns * 5 5 3 B 3 22 Impetuous instead of the Long Spear version. You would also need to add in the Notes that Thegns could only make Large Units with spear if the non-Impetuous version are taken.

As a competition gamer \ wrangler I would look at the ability to take upgrade your Theigns to large units by mixing them with the spears. That gives you 8 large units of FP with long spears for 24 points each. That unit hits with 9-10 dice (VBU5, Imp3,+1 or 2 for depth). Its a steamroller, and it compares very favourably with the other units of similar type and geographically, Basically the road to Hell is paved with good intentions but this would be a monster grinding army largely immune to heavy cavalry, missile firepower and heavy infantry. It certainly would not need any allies and the Huscarls are redundant. Putting that into context the Select Fryd from over the border hit with one dice less and cost 6 points more, the Anglo Danish Huscarls who have the same 9 dice attack are 42 points for a Large Unit.

I can think of a couple of solutions if the long spear is non negotiable you could reduce the spearmen to FL - although this causes more problems with interpenetration, but I think the real solution is to look again at the spear \ theign combo

Hi Cyrus, that is a good point. I'm not trying to make the list super troops, so that was an unintentional side effect of the Thegns/Spear combination!

My response would be to:
a) remove the option to combine thegns with Spear
b) reduce the number of thegns available
c) increase the minimum number of Spear

Early Scots (900-1054 AD) Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes 1 to 2 CM Noble Horse * 10 5 2 C 3 18 0 to 1 CP Norman Exiles 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous 0 to 3 CL Border Horse 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin 2 to 4 FP Thegns * 5 5 3 C 3 17 Long Spear 6 to 24 FP Spearmen * 5 4 1 C 2/3* 10(7) Long Spear 0 to 4 T Highlanders 6 5 2 C 2 17 Short bow B 0 to 4 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Viking Allies (Ostmen) 0 to 2 FP Veteran Huscarls * 5 6 3 C 3 21 Shieldwall 2 to 6 FP Huscarls * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 15(11) Shieldwall 0 to 8 FP Hird 5 4 2 C 1 10( 0 to 1 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B or S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Galwegian Allies 0 to 1 FL Nobles * 8 5 4 C 2/3* 16 Impetuous 2 to 12 FL Galwegians * 8 4 4 C 2/3* 12(9) Impetuous 2 to 4 S Kerns 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling Command Structure Poor (0 pts) Long Spear nullifies the Impetus Bonus for mounted troops Spearmen may form Large Units You can upgrade the front rank of each Large Unit of Spearmen to: FP Veteran Spearmen * 5 5 1 C 2/3* 14 Long Spear Notes for Viking Allies: The FP can form Large Units with Units of the same kind (Veteran Huscarls can create Large Units with other Huscarls) You can select only one Allied contingient

Jim Webster wrote:The argument for 5/3 thegns is that in reality they're effectively a late Saxon warband, but  instead of being 4/4 they're 5/3. Wearing more armour but not so impetuous.

5/3 is massively superior to 4/4.

It isn't just one dice of fighting power, much more importantly it is 1 extra point of cohesion. Add that to the Large Unit capability and they will only be taking casualties at a very slow rate.

I'm not even sure Scots should have Large units, I can't recall any literature suggesting anything of that nature. I can certainly understand having them as very high impact troops of the VBU5 I3 variety but once the initial charge was over they seemed to have become spent rather quickly which is exactly what large units overcome.

McBeth wrote:Hi Cyrus, that is a good point. I'm not trying to make the list super troops, so that was an unintentional side effect of the Thegns/Spear combination!

I appreciate that - hense "the road to Hell". As an aside I was hugely disappointed when Extra 5 came out and there were 2 immediately obvious "broken" armies that would get wrangled. What was worse was both these factors had been known of before and had been corrected from earlier lists in Extra 4 - I'm talking of VBU5 Jav armed FL and Light horse upgrades that didn't include an increase in VD. I'd rather we take account of those bastards who only look at an army list as a series of numbers looking for advantage as well as those who are trying to recreate a historical army.

btw I'm not quite "one of those bastards" but I do have a mind that works that way and the difference is hard to see unless under bright light

Ah yes, the Anglo Irish javelins.

A powergamers dream.

Just a couple of points

Remember that increased VBU from 4 to 5 costs 4 points.
So it makes them more powerful, but it isn't free.

Secondly what is the justification for veteran long spearmen. That's what the Thegns are, the veteran fighters taken into the Thegn's household.


The justification for the Impetus of 3 and deep formations is that they're basically a superior warband.
In that case I'd drop long spear.
Given that a rear rank unit doesn't get a cost reduction, and has tp pay for a long spear it cannot use, they're not cheap in big units (relatively)

But it does raise an issue with C class troops. Given they're 5 points cheaper than B class, this can make a very big difference to army size and costs. Especially in low point games on small tables. (300 point 28mm)

So for example Warband 4/4 is 21 points per large unit frontage.
A decent heavy infantry type, say 5/2 B class hoplite, costs more than that for a single depth unit frontage.
On a big 15mm table I can perhaps use the space to use my superior maneuverability but with 28mm tables is that possible?

Jim

Club meeting this weekend and I'm going to be trying out a list from this version:

Early Scots (900-1054 AD) Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes 1 to 2 CM Noble Horse * 10 5 2 C 3 18 0 to 1 CP Norman Exiles 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous 0 to 3 CL Border Horse 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin 1 to 3 FP Thegns * 5 5 3 C 3 17 6 to 24 FP Spearmen * 5 4 1 C 2/3* 10(7) Long Spear 0 to 4 T Highlanders 6 5 2 C 2 17 Short bow B 0 to 4 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Viking Allies (Ostmen) 0 to 2 FP Veteran Huscarls * 5 6 3 C 3 21 Shieldwall 2 to 6 FP Huscarls * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 15(11) Shieldwall 0 to 8 FP Hird 5 4 2 C 1 10( 0 to 1 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B or S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Galwegian Allies 0 to 1 FL Nobles * 8 5 4 C 2/3* 16 Impetuous 2 to 12 FL Galwegians * 8 4 4 C 2/3* 12(9) Impetuous 2 to 4 S Kerns 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling Command Structure Poor (0 pts) Long Spear nullifies the Impetus Bonus for mounted troops Spearmen may form Large Units Notes for Viking Allies: The FP can form Large Units with Units of the same kind (Veteran Huscarls can create Large Units with other Huscarls) You can select only one Allied contingient

It will probably look like this:

Scots 900-1054 Name Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes Charismatic General Gen 40 Thegns * FP 5 5 3 C 3 17 Thegns FP 5 5 3 C 3 17 Spearmen FP 5 5 1 C 2 10 Long Spear >Spearmen FP 5 4 1 C 2 7 Long Spear 2nd rank Spearmen FP 5 4 1 C 2 10 Long Spear >Spearmen FP 5 4 1 C 2 7 Long Spear 2nd rank Spearmen FP 5 4 1 C 2 10 Long Spear >Spearmen FP 5 4 1 C 2 7 Long Spear 2nd rank Norman Exiles CP 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous Archers S 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B Archers S 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B Archers S 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B Highlanders T 6 5 2 C 2 17 Short bow B VD 26 (13) 52.86% Fair General Cmd 20 Noble Horse * CM 10 5 2 C 3 18 Border Horse CL 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin Border Horse CL 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin VD 5 (3) 21.14% Fair General Cmd 20 Huscarls * FP 5 5 2 C 2 15 Shieldwall >Huscarls FP 5 5 2 C 2 11 Shieldwall 2nd rank Huscarls FP 5 5 2 C 2 15 Shieldwall >Huscarls FP 5 5 2 C 2 11 Shieldwall 2nd rank VD 8 (4) 20.57% Poor Command Cmd 0 Destiny Re-rolls DRr 3 15 Exploration points ExP 4 4 5.43% VD total 34 (17) Total points 350 100.00%

Be interesting to see how it does

Jim

Where did the Highlanders spring from - not seen these before?

Hi Cyrus, they were included a couple of iterations back, after I had read Impetus Extra V. They represent the 'wilder' Scots for the areas around Moray etc.

Game result.

One thing I spotted in my proposed list was that the front rank spear were still VBU 5. They are no longer 5 and were pointed, and played, as VBU 4.

Prinny fielded a Carthaginian force with Elephants, Campanian Cavalry, Celts, and decent Carthaginian Infantry. We played 350 points. The Scots won, by breaking the Cartho's largest battle group. The Scots spear that were in combat took a lot of casualties quickly, but were able to hold on for the Thegns to back them up. The Thegns too, took casualties, but the Charismatic general kept them going. The Vikings held one flank against the enemy cavalry by just being obstinate behind their shield walls. The Scots cavalry was torn to pieces by Cartho CL.

All in all I felt the list was not too powerful, and the blocks of 4/1 spear a liability. Only some extraordinary die rolling saved me at points (ie thee dice getting three 6's, followed by the 1 that I needed for the cohesion test!).