Medieval Scots 900-1054AD

Hi all, I'm proposing this list as one I can't find in any of the books or beta lists:

Early Scots (900-1054 AD) Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes 0 to 1 CP Norman Exiles 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous 1 to 2 CM Thegns * 10 5 2 C 3 18 0 to 3 CL Border Horse 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin 2 to 8 FP Thegns * 5 6 2 C 3 20 Shieldwall 4 to 24 FP Spearmen * 5 4 1 C 2/3* 12(9) Long Spear, Shieldwall 0 to 4 FL Galwegians 8 4 1 C 1 11 Javelin 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Viking Allies 1 to 3 FP Huscarls * 5 6 3 C 3 21 Shieldwall 2 to 8 FP Select Fyrd * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 17(13) Long Spear, Shieldwall 0 to 1 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B Command Structure Poor (0 pts)

Just a thought, given the nature of some of these people, would it be worth saying that if you had more than one unit of vikings or one unit of Galwegians, they had to be in their own command with their own general?
With that sort of rule I think you'd then be able to justify more Galwegians

Jim

Hi Jim, thanks for the comment!

I was thinking that the Viking Allies would be a separate command so that is fine with me. The Galwegians are designed to be a limited FL force of mercenaries etc so I'm not sure how many should be able to be fielded?

The problem is that with this period numbers are never particularly forthcoming. However it seems Galloway wasn't really absorbed into Scotland until after 1200 but certainly after the period of this list. So treating them as an ally probably works best.
For this period we're guessing with numbers but after cheating and looking at other army lists I'd say you could have up to 12 units of them

Jim

Looks good.Do you think perhaps the Spearmen should be FL with long spear,ala pictish style, rather than FP, or do you think they would have closed up by now?

It's interesting, DBMM came up with 'Pike Fast' for this sort of troop type.
It's a nice way of ducking the question

Personally under Impetus I'd say FP and shieldwall, allowing for Norse and Saxon influence if nothing else. In fact it might be that the Picts were close order, and that wargamers have made them loose order as an arbitrary method of allowing them to fight on hills.
But there's other examples of Close order troops who learned to fight well on hills, Pompeian legionaries stationed in Spain for example
So stick with FP. At least then you don't need hills
Jim

I agree. Scotland had had almost 200 years of influence from an increasing amount of Viking settlement and 'contact' ( a nice word for rape and pillage) and the shieldwall technique was pretty universal at this stage (to varying degrees).

i think "contact", once the initial plunge was taken, was pretty much trade and co-settlement - much like ireland.

Historic Scotland produced a great book called Viking Scotland that I have a copy of at home. Its pretty good.

Hey all. If I'm wanting to push this list towards a beta version with the view to getting some sort of official list, what would be the process?

hi

i think the process is usually just ask Lorenzo if he will add it to the beta lists.

send him a list and he mucks about with it to suit.


personally i had thought of this list too, but i was thinking along the picts list changing the chariots out for knights and combined with parts of the islesman list. (galwegians and Thegns)

the viking allies should probably be direct cut and paste from the Norse-Irish lists

no thoughts on anything special for Mr Macbeth, maybe treat him like El cid?

Not sure whether Mr Macbeth is particularly charismatic

Jim

Depends on whether you take Nigel Tranter's book as historical fact!

or if you are talking about me!

McBeth wrote:Depends on whether you take Nigel Tranter's book as historical fact!

Not sure it is, but it is a cracking good book and certain worth basing a campaign on

I'm not sure it's up to army list standard but then it's a few years since I read it. I would heartily recommend it. In fact most of his books are worth reading

Jim

to give "impetus" to the process I think that a good way is that once all people that discussed the lista agree you advise me to have a look and put it on the betas. So I suggest to post an updated version and see if it is ok.

Thanks Lorenzo.

OK, here is an updated list. I've changed the Viking Allies to be the same as the ones from the Norse Irish list to better represent the Scandanavian settlers. I've also added the Galwegians as a separate command to show that Galway was an independent kingdom from Gaelic Scotland until the mid 13th century. I guess too that the dates of this list could change to be 900AD to the next Scots list (Pre Feudal Scots from book five?)

Early Scots (900-1054 AD)

Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0 to 1 CP Norman Exiles 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous
1 to 2 CM Thegns * 10 5 2 C 3 18
0 to 3 CL Border Horse 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin
2 to 8 FP Thegns * 5 6 2 C 3 20 Shieldwall
4 to 24 FP Spearmen * 5 4 2 C 2/3* 12(9) Long Spear, Shieldwall
0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B
0 to 2 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin

0 to 1 Viking Allies (Ostmen)
0 to 2 FP Veteran Huscarls * 5 6 3 C 3 21 Shieldwall
2 to 6 FP Huscarls * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 15(11) Shieldwall
0 to 8 FP Hird 5 4 2 C 1 10(
0 to 1 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B
or S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin

0 to 1 Galwegian Allies
0 to 1 FL Nobles * 8 5 2 C 3 19 Javelin
2 to 12 FL Galwegians * 8 4 1 C 1/3* 11 Javelin
2 to 4 S Kerns 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
or FL Kerns 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin
0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B
0 to 2 S Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling

Command Structure Poor (0 pts)

Long Spear nullifies the Impetus Bonus for mounted troops
Notes for Viking Allies: The FP can form Large Units with Units of the same kind (Veteran Huscarls can create Large Units with other Huscarls)

You can select only one Allied contingient

sounds good, the only doubt are thegns with vbu=6. Do they form large units?

Thegns being notably better than the Viking Huscarls strikes me as a bit odd. They aren't 'professional soldiers' . Just prosperous landowners who turn up with better kit.
I'd like an explanation of why they're not just 5 5 2 C

Jim

Don't know if they could form Large Units per se or with Spearmen (forming the fisrt rank). In the latter case there is the problem that only the rear rank has spear (could be solved in some way).
Anyway I'm more on VBU 5 for Thegns.

I think it might be worthwhile playing MacBeth as 'charismatic': he went on a pilgrimage to Rome, leaving Scotland in the hands of his supporters. For most kings at this time the end result would have been a major revolt.

Don't believe Shakespeare!

In regards to the 5/2 FP I had seen that the select Fyrd was 5/2 in the Anglo Danish list so fudged the Thegns to be a bit better. If general consensus is to have 5/2 rather than 6/2 perhaps giving the Thegns Long Spear as well would not be too bad?

2-8 FP Thegns * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 17 Long spear, Shieldwall

Maybe then too (as I don't currently have them forming large units with any other FP) they can form the front rank of Large Units with the Spearmen? That would mean that a Large Unit of front rank Thegns, rear rank Spearmen would be 26 points.

Also, MacBeth would most certainly come under the charismatic general type. He was a successful general who defeated Duncan in battle and under the tannistry rules for Righship at the time was selected as the most capable man to become Righ. He ruled Scotland for around 17 years and its recorded that they were some of the most prosperous years of the middle ages for Scotland. No English or Scandanavian gains and the accumulation of a couple of smaller territories.

I'm not sure whether Thegns should form large units with the spearmen.

Whereas in an Anglosaxon army, the Select Fryd can legitimately form the front rank with Fryd as the back rank, these were men who came from the same areas, were often landowners and their tenants; with the Thegns they may or may not have been drawn from the same areas as the spearmen. They might not even have spoken the same language (but there again they might have done.)
Looking at other army lists I note that DBMM has the Thegns as Superior Warband, commenting in the notes that they seem to have adopted 'rush tactics'
I'd say that looking at this, allowing Thegns to form big units with Thegns (with cheaper back rank etc) seems fair enough. Being in big units they should feel encouraged to advance and get stuck in. They've got shieldwall and certainly cavalry should be nervous about attacking them frontally. The cavalry might possibly win, but wouldn't be a lot of use afterwards.

In fact a large unit of THegns might cost less than the unit of cavalry you need to destroy it

Another thought is that Thegns might well deserve to be B class. They might possibly be impetuous, but these last two are just speculative

Jim

hello again


just my latest thoughts on one of my fav armies.

the yiking allies straight from another list is great, cant argue with that.

the Thegns...hmmm i would have thought they would be along similar lines to the islesmen but am of the same opinion that VBU6 is too much (IE5 had a bit scale creep in it) and agree with Jim they are probably impetous, C class if yes B if not.

the mounted Thegns should be B class.


the galwegians i think should be just like the ones in the islesmen list. impetuous FL no javelins.

the spearmen i like as VBU4 with maybe a third upgradable to VBU5 and could be FP or FL at your choice. i dont think they or the thegns should get shieldwall.

i have thought about shieldwall alot and thought it was a way to make the romans better (testudo? etc etc), but then i saw sense. where do you draw the line...yikings...romans, sumerians, greeks etc etc. it is easier to say who shouldnt get shieldwall.

thats when the penny dropped for me. shieldwall isnt just interlocking of shields it is a whole way of tactical fighting.   watch the The Vikings series, see if you agree


maybe the number of knights could be increased to 2 or even 3 units, remember in most 350 point games you half maximums.

the great man himself can always be made a charasmatic general, every army and every player has that basic option. whether he gets anything extra like El cid or joan of arc alexander etc is personal choice again.