Medieval Scots 900-1054AD

Hi Frazer, I don't have the Islemen list (or just plain cant see it) so I am basing the Galwegians on the Irish bonnachts. I'm considering dropping shieldwall from the Thegns and the Spearmen, but i'm afraid that without that rule the 4/2 spear will be just a bit poop. As for the knights, as far as I can tell there were only ever 100-300 knights at this time, so figured that one based is enough. When you half the maximum, I assume you round up?

Anyway, a slight update:

Early Scots (900-1054 AD) Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes 0 to 1 CP Norman Exiles 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous 1 to 2 CM Noble Horse * 10 5 2 C 3 18 0 to 3 CL Border Horse 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin 2 to 8 FP Thegns * 5 5 2 C 3 17 Long Spear, Shieldwall 4 to 24 FP Spearmen * 5 4 2 C 2/3* 12(9) Long Spear, Shieldwall 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Viking Allies (Ostmen) 0 to 2 FP Veteran Huscarls * 5 6 3 C 3 21 Shieldwall 2 to 6 FP Huscarls * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 15(11) Shieldwall 0 to 8 FP Hird 5 4 2 C 1 10( 0 to 1 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B or S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Galwegian Allies 0 to 1 FL Nobles * 8 5 2 C 3 19 Javelin 2 to 12 FL Galwegians * 8 4 1 C 1/3* 11 Javelin 2 to 4 S Kerns 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin or FL Kerns 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling Command Structure Poor (0 pts) Long Spear nullifies the Impetus Bonus for mounted troops Notes for Viking Allies: The FP can form Large Units with Units of the same kind (Veteran Huscarls can create Large Units with other Huscarls) You can select only one Allied contingient

Also, just pondering the option to have the spearmen as either FP or FL at players choice - what would the points be for the FL? The same or more because of the movement increase (and terrain bonuses)?

hi

the maximums and minimums are halved for standard 350 points games

minimums i believe are rounded UP
maximums rounded DOWN.

so 1 - 3 CP knights would give just ONE compulsory unit.

a few lists have troops that can be different.

spearmen all FL M8  at 14 (10) ? a guess

or spearmen all FP M5 at 12 (9)

players can freely choice before games whether their spearmen are ALL FL or ALL FP.

i acknowledge modern thinging assume closer fighting formations but traditional lists have the spearmen in more open FL formations.

players will have then based both ways ..so you cant win whatever..

shieldwall is a more defensive approach so I was thinking if could be better to Thegns to have the option to be B class (now counts more) and a higher impetus instead (eg 3 or even 4). What do you think?

Spearmen could have the upgrade to VBU 5 for front rank

Knights shouldn't be compulsory, the earliest date I have found is in http://bookofdeer.co.uk/historical-background/normans/

"The first record of Normans appearing in Scotland is in 1054 AD in a battle between the king of Scots, MacBethad mac Findlaích, and Máel Coluim mac Donnchada (later Malcolm III). These particular Normans were mercenaries and were all killed in the battle. Nevertheless, during the successive reigns of Máel Coluim mac Donnchada’s three sons, Edgar, Alexander and David mac Máel Coluim, the Norman settlement in southern Scotland becomes noticeable."

So Normans only appear at all at the very end of the list and even when they were present there were so few they shouldn't be compulsory. So 0-1 covers them nicely

Picts are FL under Impetus so having the spearmen as FL is entirely reasonable, so I wouldn't bother with the FP option for them

Thegns were apparently known for attacking and are classed as warband in some rules, so making them 5/3 seems sensible.
I'd let them keep shield wall and have large units, it'll give them some protection against cavalry

Jim

thegns COULD be impetuous,,,then they could have I = 4.

I= 3 should probably be their maximum impetus.

like the Pictish lists only a percentage of spearmen should be upgraded to VBU5.

a good reason for this is to make the units cheaper and encourage a larger army. the spearmen should be the most numerous part of an army

in the islesmen list the "thegns" (nobles) are VBU6 I3 ...or VBU5 I2

all of a Mcbeth army already exist hidden away under different lists, Islesmen, Norse Irish, Picts

someone can summarize?

Will do.

Early Scots (900-1054 AD) Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes 0 to 1 CP Norman Exiles 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous 1 to 2 CM Noble Horse * 10 5 2 C 3 18 0 to 3 CL Border Horse 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin 2 to 8 FP Thegns * 5 5 3 C 3 17 Long Spear, Shieldwall 4 to 24 FP Spearmen * 5 4 1 C 2/3* 12(9) Long Spear, Shieldwall or FL Spearmen * 8 4 1 C 2/3* 14 (10) Long Spear 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Viking Allies (Ostmen) 0 to 2 FP Veteran Huscarls * 5 6 3 C 3 21 Shieldwall 2 to 6 FP Huscarls * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 15(11) Shieldwall 0 to 8 FP Hird 5 4 2 C 1 10( 0 to 1 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B or S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Galwegian Allies 0 to 1 FL Nobles * 8 5 2 C 3 19 Javelin 2 to 12 FL Galwegians * 8 4 1 C 1/3* 11 Javelin 2 to 4 S Kerns 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin or FL Kerns 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling Command Structure Poor (0 pts) Long Spear nullifies the Impetus Bonus for mounted troops Thegns may form Large units with Spearmen if they are in the front rank You can upgrade up to 1/3 deployed Spearmen to:      FP Spearmen * 5 5 1 C 2/3* 16 Long Spear, Shieldwall      FL Veteran Spearmen * 8 5 1 C 2/3* 18 Long Spear Notes for Viking Allies: The FP can form Large Units with Units of the same kind (Veteran Huscarls can create Large Units with other Huscarls) You can select only one Allied contingient

Does that cover it? I'm unsure about dropping the FP Spear altogether.

I'd drop the Thegn's long spear
Also 5/5 in large units (which I think should be with Thegns, not spearmen, they might not have had a language in common with the spearmen) makes them very tough warband.
I'd go for 5/3 which is still tough, especially with shield wall to blunt archery

Galwegians are always regarded as warband, they certainly were at the battle of the Standard. Not very good warband at that battle either, 3/3 or 4/3. There's no evidence that they stood off and shot the Norman archers down with javelins.

Jim

Hi Jim, I'm unsure what your reasoning for the thegns to be speaking a different language to the spearmen is? As far as I am aware, each thegn would bring a contingent of his own men from wherever to the army being raised, I would assume that there was some knowledge of the local language or, in most cases the thegns would be from the area the troops were from. In any case, even if they did for some reason speak different languages, how different would the situation be to later feudal armies in Britain with French speaking nobility and English speaking troops?

That being said, if that's the way we go for any reason) you'll need to explain to me the 5/5 and 5/3 reference are you saying that the thegns, if they form a large unit with another base of thegns, they would be front rank VBU5 and rear rank VBU5? Following on from that, how would the second rank be VBU3 if it was 5/3? (still a bit new to Impetus)

The Galwegians have been lifted straight from the second book, so I'm not sure we can change them?

Galwegians were probably wrong in the second book
Historically they seem to have fought as brittle warband

For the thegns I've tried desperately reading round and it's probable that they weren't a lowland imposition on the Picts so it's fair enough, they can form the front rank of spear units.
But giving them VBU of 5 and Impetus of 5 seems awfully high. With a back rank they hit with twelve dice, they're going to smash pretty well every other sort of infantry, because in the second round they're going to hit with eleven dice unless you manage to stop them.

Making them VBU 5, Impetus 3 makes them tough (especially with shield wall) but it doesn't make them exceptional infantry which the rest of the ancient world stood in awe of.

Ah! I don't think anyone suggested I5 for the Thegns! VBU 5 and I3 is what I have. ( think the formatting may have lead you to read the movement as the VBU and the VBU as the I?

You're right, yes, so we're in agreement.
I think we should change the Galwegians as well, at some point Bk 2 will probably be corrected so no point in making more errors :-)

Jim

I'll ask Lorenzo to pop in and assess whether the Galwegians can be changed here but FL 3/3 with upgrades to 4/3 sound alright. Still armed with Javelin though?

Given that they should be impetuous, would they ever stand around to use the javelins?

I'm not sure that they're worth spending three points on, because the minute an enemy gets with in Javelin range, these boys are going to hurl themselves onto them
(Probably with cries of 'can yer mother sew' and 'stitch this Jimmy') :-)


Jim

ok, can you make an updated version?

where the Galwegians are in book 2?

Ah! No 'Galwegians' in book two, I had cannibalised the Norse Irish list. I have not got book five yet so cant check the Islemen list in that (which I assume would have Galwegians?)

Can I just check what the points would be for the Thegns?

FP Thegns M5 V5 I3 C 3 Long Spear, Shieldwall

and what the bonus for upgrading to B class would be?

Anyone else thinking I 3 and shieldwall just don't mix - one is a stationary formation, the other a thrusting advance. Secondly long spear and I 3 seem very wrong - the best heavy foot with long spear are only I2 so why I3?? Are these part time warriors really better than Swiss Pike or Spartan Hoplites?? Additionally the value of long spear is the ability to organise and form a dense hedge of spearpoints to fend off cavalry, but are we also saying these Theigns are impetuous which implies a lack of order and control?

I am always fascinated by how we manage to create super units just by losing sight of the restrictions we work with. 5-3 is a hell of a melee unit - as good as it gets without a warband. Are they really that good??

I see what you are getting at. There are some options I think -

1) drop shieldwall from both the Thegns and the Spear (will this make the Spear too vunerable?)
2) drop shieldwall from just the Thegns (how would the rule work for Large units of Thegns and Spearmen? Would you just ignore shieldwall for the supporting Spear unit?)
3) drop the impetus value of the Thegns back to 2 and leave shieldwall

The argument for 5/3 thegns is that in reality they're effectively a late Saxon warband, but  instead of being 4/4 they're 5/3. Wearing more armour but not so impetuous.
Of all the Scots troops in the army they're probably the most likely to have used shieldwall

The argument for Long spear seems to be mainly from analogy with late Romans where we give 'long spear' to troops who probably didn't have one because then they have some hope of standing up to cavalry in the open.
I don't think that a 5/3 unit that is the front rank of a big unit need worry too much about contemporary cavalry to be honest, and even medieval knights charging into them are going to come out the other side battered and probably not a lot of use for anything else.



The vulnerability of the 4/1 spear is an issue. I don't think they warrant being 5/1 but giving them shield wall   could cut missile casualties and they did have long spear. There again, making them FP will give them some protection against missile fire. The FL ones with neither shieldwall nor the bonus for FP are going to get shot down :-)

In the case of big units, I would suggest that long spear and shieldwall only count if the front base of the unit has them

Jim

Early Scots (900-1054 AD) Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes 0 to 1 CP Norman Exiles 10 6 4 C 3 22 Impetuous 1 to 2 CM Noble Horse * 10 5 2 C 3 18 0 to 3 CL Border Horse 12 3 1 B 1 18 Javelin 2 to 8 FP Thegns * 5 5 3 C 3 17 Long Spear, Shieldwall 4 to 24 FP Spearmen * 5 4 1 C 2/3* 12(9) Long Spear, Shieldwall or FL Spearmen * 8 4 1 C 2/3* 14(10) Long Spear 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Viking Allies (Ostmen) 0 to 2 FP Veteran Huscarls * 5 6 3 C 3 21 Shieldwall 2 to 6 FP Huscarls * 5 5 2 C 2/3* 15(11) Shieldwall 0 to 8 FP Hird 5 4 2 C 1 10( 0 to 1 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B or S Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin 0 to 1 Galwegian Allies 0 to 1 FL Nobles * 8 5 4 C 2/3* 16 Impetuous 2 to 12 FL Galwegians * 8 4 4 C 2/3* 12(9) Impetuous 2 to 4 S Kerns 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin 0 to 2 S Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B 0 to 2 S Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling Command Structure Poor (0 pts) Long Spear nullifies the Impetus Bonus for mounted troops Thegns may form Large units with Spearmen if they are in the front rank You can upgrade up to 1/3 deployed Spearmen to: FP Veteran Spearmen * 5 5 1 C 2/3* 16 Long Spear, Shieldwall FL Veteran Spearmen * 8 5 1 C 2/3* 18 Long Spear Notes for Viking Allies: The FP can form Large Units with Units of the same kind (Veteran Huscarls can create Large Units with other Huscarls) You can select only one Allied contingient

Change to the Galwegians

Getting back to rating the Theigns I always find it helpful to plot a grid with VBU on one axis and impetus on the other, then populate it with known troop types. It makes it easier to judge where units will fit in the overall scheme of things. If your unit is as good as or better than some of the well known ones - ie Spartans etc you really need to ask if this is justified.

Back to Theigns and Large Units with Spearmen. The list originator needs to decide and explain what these troops are - it has been suggested they are heavy warband, heavy spearmen and all sorts in between. When they form large units how deep do they actually get? Is there a case that the confusion is being caused by the historic move away from what we would call warband into a heavy spear role - if the latter one option would be to allow the spear units to be represented as stiffened by Theigns so benefiting from better discipline and or factors - ie something close to what is listed as the veteran spearmen upgrade?

Lastly - long spear - is it necessary and justified? We use long spear far to often, and in this case what does it add?  I would argue if the unit already has shieldwall we are over-egging it - in fact for troops with FL Long Spear shieldwall may be a better representation than Long Spear

Just thinking aloud...