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» Warfare battle of Cunaxa
Caracoling massed Reiters EmptySat Mar 23, 2024 11:09 am by kenntak

» Ilipa 206BC Society of Ancients Battle Day
Caracoling massed Reiters EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 4:16 pm by ejc

» Dice&Lead magazine
Caracoling massed Reiters EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 8:36 am by dadiepiombo

» Errata updated
Caracoling massed Reiters EmptyMon Mar 18, 2024 8:39 am by dadiepiombo

» Mamluks in Ayyubids Egyptians
Caracoling massed Reiters EmptyFri Feb 09, 2024 11:43 am by Robert Gargan

» Army Scale in Creating Scenarios
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» Army Builder Issue
Caracoling massed Reiters EmptyTue Jan 09, 2024 9:59 am by jorneto

» Scottish Wars of Independence
Caracoling massed Reiters EmptyMon Jan 08, 2024 6:41 pm by archibald the grim

» Hoplites equipped with Hoplon
Caracoling massed Reiters EmptyMon Jan 08, 2024 3:57 pm by kenntak

Warfare battle of Cunaxa

Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 pm by ejc

Sorry for short notice we are putting on the above scenario on Saturday 11th …

Comments: 4

Ilipa 206BC Society of Ancients Battle Day

Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:54 pm by ejc

This year's SOA Battle Day is Ilipa206BC will be about a dozen games all re …

Comments: 1

SELWG 2023 Thapsus 46BC

Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:29 pm by ejc

We will putting on the above game at SELG 2023 on Sunday 15th October. Forum …

Comments: 6

Colours 2023

Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:14 pm by ejc

Sorry for very short notice. We are putting on a game at colours on Saturday …

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Salute 2023

Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:49 pm by jorneto

Any Impetus games in this event?

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Society of Ancients Battle Day

Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:15 pm by ejc

Sorry for the short notice.
Our group is attending this event in Newbury on …

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Caracoling massed Reiters

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paulbgau
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Post by Andrew Lake Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:20 pm

Can they use the second move after shooting to charge?

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Post by paulbgau Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:01 am

I would say NO - they are not SALVO so cannot fire and charge.


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Post by stecal Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:35 pm

rule 6.1, pg 29 "only mounted troops can fire before charging"

I'd say yes. The caracole rule clearly says that the reiters will be able to " complete its activation with one or more movement actions" after firing twice. Passing all those discipline tests as slow movers will be the trick

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Post by Aurelius Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:58 pm

Interesting question, I'm on a learning curve here. I'd say yes, rule 6.1.6 on page 31, says that Infantry are not allowed to fire before charging, except those with "salvo". So cavalry can fire and charge.

TD

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Post by paulbgau Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:34 am

Caracole and charging is not very historical. Reiters (caracole) tended to avoid charging and used their shooting.

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Post by Zippee Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:37 am

But the purpose of the caracole was to create a hole into which to barge the horses - rather depends what exactly is meant by the term "charge" - usually brings to mind images of Errol Flynn at a mad gallop.

I doubt any horse charged like that, it's all a rather sedate move into contact. So don't get caught in the semantics of a word.

I'm fairly certain the rules allow RE to 'charge' after shooting but they do have to pass a heap of DTs to do so and if they don't they're sat disordered in front of the enemy - never a good place to be. So it's not without risk of going pear-shaped.
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Post by d_Guy Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:50 pm

Not very well connected to wargaming circles and perhaps the term is used but "barge" seems an excellent choice for what TR, in particular, we're trying to do - a forced entry disrupting the opponents formation. So GA charge and TR (and maybe RE) barge. I like the usage Zippee. Very Happy

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Post by paulbgau Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:42 am

Zippee wrote:But the purpose of the caracole was to create a hole into which to barge the horses - rather depends what exactly is meant by the term "charge" - usually brings to mind images of Errol Flynn at a mad gallop.

I doubt any horse charged like that, it's all a rather sedate move into contact. So don't get caught in the semantics of a word.

I'm fairly certain the rules allow RE to 'charge' after shooting but they do have to pass a heap of DTs to do so and if they don't they're sat disordered in front of the enemy - never a good place to be. So it's not without risk of going pear-shaped.

I'm not lost in the semantics of the words, although I would expect something a little more aggressive than a 'sedate move', but rarely Error Flynn. I like 'barge' as after the initial contact that what I would expect, using the horse to push your way through.

I see what you describe more as Trotters. I understand that that was their model, ride up and shoot then press home. In Baroque I see that as the point blank pistol trait rather than Pistol shooting from range (although I wish there was some way to 'reload' your point blank pistol - but that's a different issue).

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Post by paulbgau Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:01 am

Maybe a roll of 5 or 6 on the Charge bonus is the 'Error Flynn' charge.
Laughing

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Post by Zippee Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:54 pm

paulbgau wrote:
I'm not lost in the semantics of the words, although I would expect something a little more aggressive than a 'sedate move', but rarely Error Flynn. I like 'barge' as after the initial contact that what I would expect, using the horse to push your way through.

I see what you describe more as Trotters. I understand that that was their model, ride up and shoot then press home. In Baroque I see that as the point blank pistol trait rather than Pistol shooting from range (although I wish there was some way to 'reload' your point blank pistol - but that's a different issue).

Reiter to Trotter to Galloper is an evolution of how to use the new wonder weapon on horseback. Ultimately the unsurprising conclusion was that while it's useful to have mobile shooters, mobile shock is better suited to the arme blanche when the peasant infantry can out shoot you..

Caracoling is an extension of older cantabrian/skythian shooting tactics whereby you concentrate continuous missile pressure at a single point rather than diffuse it along a line and when you create a crack you exploit it. It just has limited value when the target can shoot you more than you can shoot it.

Reiters concentrate on the shooting with an option to move to contact. Trotters are always going to contact but want to shoot first to make a hole. Gallopers just want to get in your face and then shoot you.
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Post by Andrew Lake Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:13 pm

I asked the question with the view the rules allow it , however the caracole tactic was to shoot and avoid contact if possible so although able to charge historically they should shoot twice and withdraw as second movement. So move forward shoot , discipline test, shoot again, discipline test then withdraw

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Post by Zippee Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:10 pm

I'm not entirely certain I agree that that was their tactical objective.

Shoot and then move away - why? What's been gained?

Surely, it's shoot, shoot some more, keep shooting until you've achieved your objective or you chicken out and head home.

The objective is the defeat of the enemy force, shoot until they waver and then do what horse do and turn that waver into a rout.
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Post by Andrew Lake Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:29 pm

Advance (Best against infantry against cavalry would be stupid unless other reiters)shoot , shoot some more withdraw beyond their charge range, leaving them disordered and bloodied. This way they get no chances to roll any more dice than necessary other than shooting against one of your less combatty cavalry units. You can either charge in with another unit or wait to see what your opponent does with the unit you just shot up,

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Post by Zippee Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:11 pm

You've switched back to game tactics - we were discussing actual tactics.
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