Suggestions for Advanced Impetus

Personally, I'd like to see FMs a bit easier to get but less decisive. One idea that has floated around in my mind is having FMs rolled and deployed before the turn starts. This would allow the other side some time to deal with the FM. As it stands the FM is too powerful in my experience because it sets up last and has a reasonable chance to move first in the next turn thus getting the dreaded double move (often at a critical moment in the battle.)

We were talking about this yesterday and one idea that may be worth trying is making troops that interpenetrate friends have to pass a discipline test if they want to shoot in the same turn - using the same mods as for evasion. May cut down a little on the light horse dancing.

All for making FM more of an off table extension of the battlefield than some 'trump card' manoeuvre so I quiet like your idea Gaius about having them rolled for and deployed at the start of the turn. Nice idea

The light horse 'rolling thunder' debate continues....wonder if a discipline test is the way to go though ? Is it a discipline issue ? these open order very fluid formations was how they fought.
Perhaps being able to contact CL on the flank without them getting the option to evade is enough of an attack on their fighting doctrine
Might be more a 'swings and round about' issue Cyrus ?
The other thing is would it make much of a difference ? or are we just adding another die roll to the game ?
Just my 2c worth .... shall run it by a few others anyway see what they think

Applying a penalty (say -1) to shooting when there is any interpenetration involved might solve the problem.

Or getting more radical: no shooting with interpenetrations.

Lorenzo - Not sure if this thread is going the way you wanted it ? Turning into a discussion group rather than a destination for proposed changes to the next AI ?

Maybe a new one could be started as a gathering point instead ? call it - Confirmed Changes to Advanced Impetus ? .....(or something like that.)

This can continue on it's merry way though

Tarty wrote:
The light horse 'rolling thunder' debate continues....wonder if a discipline test is the way to go though ? Is it a discipline issue ? these open order very fluid formations was how they fought.

It could be argued that the test represents how quickly and cleanly the light horse can move through their friends - do they do so with enough time to develope an effective attack or does something go amiss? Is it discipline? Our Discipline rating covers many things that are actually skill based - such as timing an evade for instance, so it seems appropriate. It is tied into the new (tried, tested and working) evade mechanic so it is not a totally new system.

There are other options - a simple -1 on firing would work, but I feel not as well - interpenetration is not a solo event - there are two participants, so some relationship with discipline & command should be involved - hence the Discipline test rather than the straight mod. Baroque is MUCH more restrictive - you must take an action after interpenetration to shoot - which implies another automatic -1 for the move plus a very real chance of disorder (and another minus). I think that's fine for Pike & Shot era but doesn't chime with the ancient period very well.

Have CL been nerfed enough? Possibly - but players use them differently in game to how I understand their historical use - they (we) concentrate on a single target rather than have a dispersed effect. You may be happy with this, but I'm a bit nervous that we are exploiting a rules mechanism rather than representing an historical tactic

feel free to share any idea.
Once I have the final draft of AI I will post for a check.

I want to avoid to add more rules changes as this is the task of Impetus 2. Also the risk is to stratify new patches for things that maybe could be simply totally changed or seen with a different approach (I'm not referring any rule in particular)

-1 would be simple for sure and provide another negative for stacking up units behind each other.

I kind of agree with Cyrus though that the tactic of displacement is perhaps a tad to easy to in Impetus. I don't have a problem with S moving forward through formed troops and doing their thing. Rotating FL or CL through each other seems a bit more challenging tactically to pull off and creates some odd situations.

I'm not sure if either of these 'penalties' for interpenetration would make much difference. Well enough of a difference to warrant a change that is

I wonder if there's something I'm not picking up on here ?.... most of our games are 28mm on 6x4 tables . Quiet a different sort of a game to say 15mm for example where CLs would get more of a chance to concentrate I would imagine.
This 'rolling fire' possible with CLs 12U move does have it's down side. Tends to leave a large unsupported flank usually. Only a few weeks back I witnessed a pike block clean up some over committed CLs

I think "over committed" is the key - do something stupid or risky and pay the consequences. A single stand of well controlled CL can stop and eventually beat any pike unit - get to point blank on the side and shoot them every time they move through your ZOC, or when the poor buggers try to pivot to face you. Only 6 dice a shot so...... and of course if you miss and they still try and catch you you get to do it again as it takes 2 moves to wheel the 90 degrees needed.

I'm a committed CL user and even I think they need a little bit pinning back

Yes quiet agree with Cyrus a well handled CL unit can be a handful if you don't have the right counter for them.

The ability to contact CL out of their 'frontal evasion corridor' has been one of the counter measures used and with a pike block in the case I just gave what's more....a little bit of a stretch ? Must say I had some difficulty explaining that one to a couple of newbies "They can shoot from any side why can't they evade from any side as well ?" was their point ( I'm sure you've heard that one before )

Suppose what I'm trying to say is do we need interpenetration restrictions for them when all the other CL issues are added to the mix ?
We're also just talking about CLs here at the moment as it effects them the most with their 12U move... but it would effect all units capable of moving through friends and firing.

Tarty wrote:
The ability to contact CL out of their 'frontal evasion corridor' has been one of the counter measures used  and with a pike block in the case I just gave what's more....a little bit of a stretch ? Must say I had some difficulty explaining that one to a couple of newbies "They can shoot from any side why can't they evade from any side as well ?" was their point ( I'm sure you've heard that one before

Easy fix - let them shoot frontally only.

Says the Heavy Infantry guy

Tarty wrote:
We're also just talking about CLs here at the moment as it effects them the most with their 12U move... but it would effect all units capable of moving through friends and firing.

Yes - hence the choice of a discipline test using the same mods as for evasion - so skirmishers and light horse would get a bonus. Would also deal with the same "rolling thunder" effect you can sometimes get with massed FL Javelins

GG - 10 out of 10 for effort there mate - except restricting them to shooting frontally doesn't stop the "rolling thunder" - it would stop the "drive by" version but in many \ most cases it is preferable to stay in front of the target so you can evade!

My Turkomen were the victims in that pike block attack. I am still lost in wonder that a thirty minute manoeuvre (Napoleonic timing) could have enough time to move into contact on my flank. An accident of timing, failed initiative rolls and some good cohesion rolls on multiple moves made it possible.

CL-heavy armies blow up quite easily in 28mm. I don't see how people are having problems with them. It's tough enough finding room to manoeuvre on a 6x4. I use them out of love, not in expectation of endless victory.

I agree starkadder. In thinking it over I don't find in 28mm that CL and FL armies are overwhelming. I don't think a fix is needed. If one bunches up to attack one unit with CL one risks a side attack from the enemy. One thing that does irritate me is S units displacing FL back. That seems a bit of a stretch to me. I would allow S to be displaced but not allow S to displace other troop types.

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:
GG - 10 out of 10 for effort there mate - except restricting them to shooting frontally doesn't stop the "rolling thunder" - it would stop the "drive by" version but in many \ most cases it is preferable to stay in front of the target so you can evade!

As much as they piss me off in 15mm by running away whenever I try to close with them (Yes Andrew, I'm looking at you!) the mechanics do give a reasonable interpretation of light cav shoot and scoot tactics.

Maybe revise the interpenetration rules so they must fully exit from the unit they are interpenetrating, that will cost them movement losses to shooing dice as well as potential discipline tests.

Or maybe we make it that the front unit masks any unit behind it from evading, the front guys can see what is coming and bug out leaving their mates to face the music....

starkadder wrote:CL-heavy armies blow up quite easily in 28mm. I don't see how people are having problems with them. It's tough enough finding room to manoeuvre on a 6x4. I use them out of love, not in expectation of endless victory.

The classic dichotomy, in 15mm they escape too easily, in 28mm they can barely escape at all.

Maybe we make evasion a half move? The 28s thus get more room, the 15s don't get to run away at their leisure...

It seems were having a different experience with them - finding room at 28mm \ 400pts in the UK is not a problem. I wonder if this is a geographical thing?

Mind that in Impetus 2 reactions will be the same as Baroque. That is "opportunity" is made at the moment with the pass of a D Test. Also Disordered troops can try to react (reacting has limits btw). This does mean that even a disordered Unit can try to opportunity charge a CL. Maybe it will be not easy, but not impossible. So there is some additional risk for CL.

How wide are you testing changes in Impetus 2 Lorenzo? I appreciate that you have a solid group of Italian gamers but I think Impetus has become an international game.

Also, could you give us here a heads up on potential changes to disorder and reaction responses. I think my group might like to play test this idea.

I like that change, Lorenzo. 

Anything that leads a player to making difficult choices on the battlefield is good. The greatest games are about risk and consequences.

We have a few players who love CLs, Cyrus, although they aren't the only armies that any of us field. We are finding that cheap missile (esp, javelin) and monster spear-heavy armies (Scots etc) are appearing with a bit of regularity. It can be very difficult to work your way around the field. 

The horse armies died away with the rise of massed and coordinated missile defence. I don't have a major problem with it. I appreciate that it must be different in 15mm as you have more room.

I find the schiltron rule, when combined with the flank support advantage, makes the Scots a bit over-powered. A schiltron is its own flank. That was the whole point of it.

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:It seems were having a different experience with them - finding room at 28mm \ 400pts in the UK is not a problem. I wonder if this is a geographical thing?

A 24cm evasion on a table that is only 180x120 tends to mean that with the number of units now on the table no matter where they flee there is a unit that can take advantage of them. Usually not the unit they fled from, rather that they cannot find a reasonably safe space from the enemy in total.

Sorry I've been away over Easter... and out of internet range. I think the new change is going to be good as well.
That CL contacted by pike 'thing' was a game we had at John D's Starkers...... I had forgotten that had happened to you also

Tarty wrote:That CL contacted by pike 'thing' was a game we had at John D's Starkers...... I had forgotten that had happened to you also

Those pike blocks can be slippery little eels with the right dice.

In my understanding, when a pike block hits a CL on the flank it doesn't necessarily mean that the pike block actually contacted the CL. The melee could represent a host of things related to morale and a CL routing could simply be their panicked decision to vacate the battlefield by turning around and riding off (because of the "pressure" of the pike block.)