Lance and Point Blank Pistol

Another great game yesterday, early period (pre-1600) - using much of the German Catholic list as a guide.
LTE, Arquebus, Demi-lancers etc...

My opponent and I will work on putting up some early lists.

We did come across an interesting problem

A unit with both Lance and Point Blank pistol.

We thought that allowing the PBP and then Lance charge was a little excessive.
In the end we said
1. Lance used on first Charge or counter-charge
2. PBP in defense if no counter-charge
3. PBP of pursuit or subsequent melee

What do others think ?

just because they have pistols in their holsters does not make them have PBP doctrine. Shock lancers definitely not.

Agree with stecal, PBP and lances imply, in my mind, very different tactical doctrines where it is likely only one would be used. The pistols, as with Boarder Reivers, were probably used in melee' (and counted in the units VBU)

I think it would be an either one or the other in the situation you describe. Once melee' occurs you have lost the first use of both for the rest of the game.

The German Catholic list already has this combination


TR Cuirassiers 2S 6 2 B 3 50 Point blank pistol, Cuirass

You can provide one Unit of Cuirassiers with LANCE, +2pts

Hmm, perhaps the author meant for lance to replace PBP. I am not seeing how a lancer could even fire his pistols in a charge with one hand on the reins & the other holding a lance.

Thanks for pointing out that PBP/lance option is from a list in Baroque.
Looked through 6.7 (PBP) and 8.2.2 (lance) again. Far as I can tell the PBP bonus is used/lost  during the unit's first contact (by any means). I was thinking that the same applied to lances but as you say in the OP it is in the first charge/countercharge.

If a unit so equipped charges to first contact, the intent of the rules seems to be that both are used. Since only one unit can be so equipped maybe it is not such an egregious idea. Still difficult to see how this was actually performed.

So:
First contact (not involving the unit charge/cc): PBP are used defensively before melee', if not used they are lost. Lances are not used.
First charge/cc (after PBP use): the lance bonus is used, if not used they are lost.
First charge/cc AND first contact: PBP is performed, then the lance provides re-roll in the melee', if not used both are lost.

perhaps, as stecal just pointed out, it is a weapon replacement. D&P will need to tell us I guess.

good point guys.
Well as it is not a replacement but and additional cost, and as a Unit in Baroque is a big Unit, not few men, I would see as a Unit where some still have pistols, while others are equipped with lance.

This thing will be reconsidered when releasing the official lists, if allow both or make the lance as a replacement of pbp.

I think it should be doctrinal - either they are using predominantly pistols or charging hard. The two aren't complimentary.

So I'd make it an either/or upgrade if there is a lack of clarity on what was actually preferred or if sometimes one and sometimes the other.

pistol is used also on defense, while lance only in attack.
Maybe the best thing is if you have the upgrade to lance, you can use lance on charge and pistol on defense.

Seems like a lot of special clauses building up for limited purpose.

Lance on charge or countercharge, PBP if charged - what about pursuit?

both only first use - but charged at same point value as others who get to use them in other circumstances.

not a fan of such individualistic unit rules

I'm with Zippee on this. Stick to the doctrine. The Impetus rules have generally not gone down the WRG road of emphasizing the armor & weapons over the tactical doctrine.

Yes one does seem to be diametrically opposed to the other in this case.
Also WRG & Impetus used in the same sentence is enough to convince me that an either/or option should seriously be considered here.

d_Guy wrote:Agree with stecal, PBP and lances imply, in my mind, very different tactical doctrines where it is likely only one would be used. The pistols, as with Boarder Reivers, were probably used in melee' (and counted in the units VBU)

I think it would be an either one or the other in the situation you describe. Once melee' occurs you have lost the first use of both for the rest of the game.

absolutely, a lancer's pistol is used for threatening unarmed civilians, tavern keepers and similar

I recently came across the problem after buying Wallenstein' s Bodyguard from Warlord Games - cuirassiers with lances. I got round it by reclassifying them as fighting like French Wars of Religion gendarmes and changing the wording in the Catholic list:

Upgrade 1 unit of Cuirassiers to Lancers GA Cuirassiers 6 3 B 3VP cuirass, lance 53pts

I thought this is okay as they do seem to hark back to a previous era.

Cheers