AMBUSHES AND FLANK MARCHES

We had an interesting scenario last night with one side having 2 Units in Ambush in Gentle Hills at the edge of the battlefield and being sprung by the opponent having a Flank March come in on the first turn.   A few questions came out of this situation.

Firstly, when a Flank March arrives, does this count as its Deployment?

Do the Units in the Flank March move onto the Battlefield and stop or are they permitted to continue to move and/or fire?

Are all Units in the Flank March placed on the Battlefield before any Ambush is revealed?

Normally when an Ambush is sprung, the opposing Units are already on the table so no real problems with the placement of Units arises.   Problems occur when the Flank Marching Unit hasn't actually arrived, so placement of Units can be critical if the Ambush is sprung before all the Units are placed.   In Advanced Impetus, if one Unit moves within 6U of a terrain piece the Ambush is revealed (at the end of the movement phase).   When not all of your Units are on the table, this gives the advantage to the Flank Marching Units because they are able to set up anywhere they want to and can negate the effect of the Ambush.   Seems unlikely that a Flank Marching Command can stumble into an Ambush but are able to pick how they set up to counter the Ambush.

One suggestion would be that the Flank Marching Command sets up ALL its Units and at the end of the set up, the Ambush is revealed.   Then, any Unit within 5U of the Ambushing Units must move directly back outside 5U from the Ambusher.   If the Flank Marching Unit cannot move directly back (eg, no room without going off table), then it is considered lost. Ambushing Units in a large terrain piece must write down exact location as per Impetus Rulebook.

What do others think?

Cheers,

Dennis

As the other player in this scenario.
Its the risk you take deploying a ambush on the edge.

There is no real disadvantage as you can still set up how you want in the terrain.

As we played it last night I think is how it is meant to be played in the rules.

Flank March is placed as a deployment up to 12 Cm from the selected edge. as soon as one unit is placed 6cm or closer to the terrain piece containing the ambush the Ambushers set up.

In effect you have been counter ambushed.

Then the FM remaining units are placed.
Your suggestion is going against all that is written in the rules.

As the FM can do nothing else when deployed the ambushed/ambushing player can choose to have their troops facing away and run the next turn if they win the next roll.

The rules
Ambushes
Advanced Impetus - IV - "Sighting" occurs at the END of the phase of Movement or AFTER the Deployment of the ENTIRE Command, if the "Sighting" is made during Deployment. The player controlling the Ambush is required to place the units on the table if one opposing Unit ENDS a phase of movement within 6U from the terrain piece.

Thanks Boris
It was the first FM I have tried and unlucky for Dennis it came in first turn.
Even worse for him the two units flushed out contained one of his generals.

Dennis Maximus wrote:
Firstly, when a Flank March arrives, does this count as its Deployment?

It is placed on the table at the end of the turn so as soon as that is done for any unit that unit is now deployed

Dennis Maximus wrote:
Do the Units in the Flank March move onto the Battlefield and stop or are they permitted to continue to move and/or fire?

They are placed on board at the end of the turn and do nothing else.  The command is then rolled for in the next complete turn as if it were any other command.

Dennis Maximus wrote:
Are all Units in the Flank March placed on the Battlefield before any Ambush is revealed?

Normally when an Ambush is sprung, the opposing Units are already on the table so no real problems with the placement of Units arises.   Problems occur when the Flank Marching Unit hasn't actually arrived, so placement of Units can be critical if the Ambush is sprung before all the Units are placed.   In Advanced Impetus, if one Unit moves within 6U of a terrain piece the Ambush is revealed (at the end of the movement phase).

The ambush is sprung IMMEDIATELY any enemy unit comes within 6U of the terrain piece and at the end of the movement phase.

Light cavalry can be used to scout terrain very effectively this way.

For clarity: The ambush is revealed immediately a unit ends its movement phase within 6U, not at the end of the movement phase for the entire command.

As such yes, flank march deployment can be modified following the revelation of an ambush by an earlier placed unit.  This is the same as when the first unit to move in any command comes within 6U of terrain containing ambushers, the rest of the command moves with that knowledge.

Dennis Maximus wrote:
  When not all of your Units are on the table, this gives the advantage to the Flank Marching Units because they are able to set up anywhere they want to and can negate the effect of the Ambush.   Seems unlikely that a Flank Marching Command can stumble into an Ambush but are able to pick how they set up to counter the Ambush.

Equally the ambusher can attempt to disrupt the deployment the flanker wishes to utilise.

Dennis Maximus wrote:
One suggestion would be that the Flank Marching Command sets up ALL its Units and at the end of the set up, the Ambush is revealed.   Then, any Unit within 5U of the Ambushing Units must move directly back outside 5U from the Ambusher.   If the Flank Marching Unit cannot move directly back (eg, no room without going off table), then it is considered lost.   Ambushing Units in a large terrain piece must write down exact location as per Impetus Rulebook.

No

Thanks for the input. That's pretty much what we ended up doing anyway in a round about sort of manner.

I thought that ALL Units in a Command had to be deployed before an Ambush was revealed.

There is a potential problem when setting up an Ambush in a large piece of terrain such as a wood (which limits visibility to 5U). If an Ambush is set up 5U inside a wood it is potentially revealed at 11U when in any other case it would not be visible. I know the Ambusher has the option to set up anywhere in the terrain but if I wanted to stay hidden I would be back out of sight until the enemy was right on top of me. Kind of nullifies the full effect of an Ambush. Sorry probably just thinking too much.

Cheers,

Dennis

it is as Granicus said.

For the last point mentioned by Dennis, you are aware of the enemy at 6U of a terrain feature. Just imagine that that some of your scouts noticed the presence. But visibility can limit on how to engage it.

"Sir, enemy light troops are in the wood. I suppose they are about 200. Don't think they have horse. But they are armed with javelins. We missed two men in the recognition"

Now it is up to the Unit/Command leader to deal with this threat

Thanks Lorenzo. I know what the idea is but it still leaves the same problem. I still believe that the placement of an Ambush should be written down and only revealed once ALL the enemy Units have Deployed and suffer any consequences as I said before. But I can live with it the way it is.

Regards,

Dennis

You are giving way to much advantage to the ambushers Dennis with that suggestion.

The FM command is already running a risk with doing a FM, you are trying to add extra levels of difficulty where none are needed.

The ambushing troops still have quite a few options on what they can do.

Thanks Phil

I now know what the intent of the rule is and I'll play it the way we did, but the wording in Advanced Impetus needs to be re-written or clarified.

I don't think this situation came up when the rule was written and tested. Works fine for commands directly facing each other on initial deployment at the start of a game but can be a bit trickier in our situation.

The way it is currently written, if the Flank March counts it's arrival as it's initial Deployment, then the Ambush does not reveal itself until the ENTIRE Command is deployed.

Dennis

Dennis Maxentius wrote:I now know what the intent of the rule is and I'll play it the way we did, but the wording in Advanced Impetus needs to be re-written or clarified.

I don't think this situation came up when the rule was written and tested.   Works fine for commands directly facing each other on initial deployment at the start of a game but can be a bit trickier in our situation.

The way it is currently written, if the Flank March counts it's arrival as it's initial Deployment, then the Ambush does not reveal itself until the ENTIRE Command is deployed.

Dennis

From a vague memory it was because the initial deployment for flank marches consists of the troops "marching on" to the table as their move.

mmmh, as the player that controls the FM can choose what to deploy first, I think it is up to him to deal with possible ambushes placing a Unit with a role of "scouts".
At the same time when you place an ambush in a terrain close to the side edge, you must be aware that this ambushing troop could face a possible FM.

I agree if the FM troops are counted as moving, that's why I asked that question first. And yes they should send in scouting troops. A clarification of the wording would just make life easier. Because as it reads now, the Ambush doesn't reveal itself until the Entire Command has deployed.

Consider adding a sentence to the Ambush rule.
"In the case of a FM arriving within 6U of a terrain piece containing a unit in Ambush, the arrival of the first unit within 6U of that terrain reveals the Ambush."

Dennis

I add it to Advanced Impetus I'm working at

Excellent.

Dennis