armies in disguise

dadiepiombo wrote:what has been recently made for the Samnites is the way to go. FL with VBU and javelin use the "heavy javelin" rule (eg like Pilum but with 2 dice both in attack and in defense).
I think is a simple rule that makes the righ balance.

FL with VBU 4 and javelin have a more skirmish approach, while with VBU 5 turn to be more a melee troops with javelin used at point blank before the melee starts.

Yes that could work

Is what you discussed above Lorenzo what you propose for the Anglo Irish VBU5 javelin troops? I have played against Spanish quite a bit and the odd VBU5 javelin unit is fine (gives the Spanish army a bit of punch) but a whole army of these blokes is too much.

That is my view too - 3 or 4 is hard but not unreasonable - 24 is a different matter

working "on the rules" can solve/improve some situations

eg:

a) LU T+T fire with the front rank

b) Javelin with VBU 5 (or more) become Heavy Javelin

etc
In this way, change the rule and the lists will follow. Easier to manage without making too exceptions.
Of course there are some cons.

Yes OK we'll 'pencil' both of these in and see how they play.

Banning beta lists is a thermonuclear approach.

I, for one, have a considerable Mycenaean army, not exactly an odd or eclectic choice. Does this mean I can pack them away quietly and not trouble the world again?

I also have Assyrians. Another one for the shoebox, presumably.

Huns, anyone.

None of these are rare choices but are only available in beta.

hi gents

of course when i started this subject, i had a clear thought in my head as to what"I" wanted to do.

i wanted to buy a Muscovite army and play it using the ottoman list as a proxy.

but now it is clear that if you give them an inch they will steal a mile rule comes into play.

i have enormous sympathy for guys like Ken and Steve that run comps in the UK.

proxies is perhaps just going too far but i also have to agree with our ozzy friend that beta lists should be allowed, or else whats the point in having them. plus we all have our fav army we want to use. (such as my Muscovites!!)

on the slight distraction on this thread about broken armies and VBU5 javelin i have to hold my hands up and say yeah i have used a very gamey Med irish which i now regret...(honest)

the making them heavy javelin is a good fix. tho personally i still think the pilum rules needs a bit beefing up. you shouldnt lose pilum after one VBU loss

anyways...is good to Cyrus back on the forum

I think we should have a separate class of betas that are competition approved - get a small group of players including a tame wrangler to check them through and try and spot any problems, then ok them - I cant see a problem there, other than getting consistency. There are betas that I would look at and say - yup no problem , but as a TO I dont think I have the right to say that beta is ok but "your" beta is not

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:as a TO I dont think I have the right to say that beta is ok but "your" beta is not

yes that's a no no and as TO shouldn't be put in that kind of situation.

As a sideline over here we've been creating facebook groups for each comp with everyone posting up their army lists for all to see. Everyone has a chance to pipe up and express their opinion about what's being used and so the chance to amend anything. Lists are confirmed 1 week before generally.
(people do have to be on fb however)

As Tarty says, we like to post the list publicly on a given time and day.

We aren't draconian about it but it is a recognised courtesy and creates interest in the postings. They can be used for future reference as well as 350 comp lists.

My TO at Cancon dream was to have all players using a common template. It is still a work in progress.

What I find confronting is the notion that people fiddle lists to create killer-diller armies that would never have taken the field. It's a game of toy soldiers for heaven's sake. If that's what you do to validate your worth then you're in a bit of trouble.

It never ceases to amaze me that people will travel hundreds of kilometres to stand in a room for several days and play with tin dollies. But they do and so do I. Surely it should be an enjoyable experience - win or lose? Argument and aggravation over a confected list is just ridiculous.

On a different but related note, my Turks do all sorts of service, my hoplites serve all over the place and my Normans have been from Ireland to the Holy Land and back. My Irish javelinmen have performed well as Early Macedonian hill-men. As I say far too often, it's just a bloke in a cloak with a stick. There are others more specific, my beloved Mycenaeans and my new little Assyrian army.

Some of these armies may have been "in disguise" but they have never been camouflaged. Too often I see armies that seem to have been built for one purpose, one specific moment (a bit like an English rugby team). I like being able to adapt them.

Almost every army I have comes from my academic study, genuine historical interest or so that the core of it can be used to serve several different lists. It is a strength of Impetus that this can be done reasonably and easily.

I'll get out of your way now.

I think the phenomenum is localized to a specific community. For example there are tournament circuits where unpainted figs are the standard and others where you cannot seen one.

Now, even in DBM, that for some aspect had a poor look (above all for scenics), I never seen an unpainted figure and very few proxyies. I mean a Hun CL can work as Mongol, not as Mounted Crossbowmen for Condottieri.
This happens in Italy in DBA, where they want to make tournaments limited to historical period, but this is because of the need to use different lists, not for the historical flavour.

In Italy we accepts 1/72 figures both in 15mm and 28mm, but rightly based. Some don't like, but that scale is very popular here in Italy and helped to have more players. Most are moving to 28mm plastics now.
Still no unpainted armies in Italian Impetus circuit (with very rare exceptions of few limited bases a couple of times in 7 years). And proxies are very limited and acceptable.

No rules in our "tourney" regarding painted figures, but everyone that plays shows up with painted figures. It's part of the hobby. I wouldn't dream of showing up with unpainted figures.

Proxying figures is all relative to the circumstances involved. I like the idea that some bases could be used in more than one army. And I prefer showing up with an army that is what it says it is for my own sense of self-integrity, and hopefully my opponents feel the same way.

And we allow beta lists. We're trying to have some fun. And we like it when we get forces facing each other that were historically opponents, it's fun, but if not, oh well.

I wouldn't get hung up if some one showed up with a 20mm or 1/72 scaled army, as long as the basing is the same. Life is too short.

Heck ... I've got nephews who use 1/72 scale for ACW on the same table top as my 25/28mm, but why would I argue? They're involved with somtthing fun, and there are way worse things in life than mixing those scales on the same table top. But I digress ... lol.

Horses for courses I suppose.

I certainly dont object to putting bases in different armies - my original Skythian army was made up with troops taken from my Persian, and I am the happy owner of some Bretonnian longbowmen that see service in any number of Medieval armies, but in both cases they are the right troop type and they also are the right models - sort of

I'm not a fan of 1:72 in 28mm competitions - life is too short, but if everyone else can be bothered to spend a part of it painting the right army I think it not unreasonable to expect "Mr 20mm" to do so too - it's not as though 28mm is expensive nowadays nor is it a surprise that the competition is in 28mm - look at it another way, if the basing is the only thing that matters why bother with figures at all?

Well, just to revive this lovely thread - thing is, competition breeds competitiveness in any field, even in this most gentlemanly of pursuits. For tournaments I have never had any compunction about using the most effective set up of armies available to me with one objective - crushing my enemies into the dust. Whilst away from the table I am a gentle soul prone to meditation and socialising, within the rules I have always seen it as obligatory to field my strongest armies to give opponents the best match I possibly can.
I tend to side with the more strict interpreation of gaming - armies must be painted and based correctly - prettily preferred, to attract new players and provide eye candy, which Impetus can do better than almost any other rule set IMHO - however, I have often had to use proxies to field my strongest forces (never unpainted - but have had celts masquerading as dark age warbands and steppe armies masquerading - not too uncomfortably as Lithuanians for example).
My point is simple, I, and many competition gamers will invariably play the armies which offer the highest chance of victory within the rules of competition. There is no garnishing this. And if the strongest army possible is not brought to the tournament table, then it cannot be expected to win. Not with the levels of skill and experiance many veteran gamers bring to the circuit.
Much as I love a perfectly historical encounter, in tournaments, the mix of periods/geographia rarely allows for perfectly plausible scenarios.
Yes, even my "incompetently led" half way down the table upgraded Swiss were entirely within the rules (and based and painted accurately incidentally) - even though I would have pooped myself if I came up against them in a match!
Manana
Dax

Second point is that, time is indeed limited and resources for many gamers far from infinite - those with dozens of armies can competently field multiple periods and mixes of troops, but it takes a long time to build a varied stock. we have always given first timers a bit of flexibility to join in tournaments - especially when they have defected from other rule sets. Within reason of course.
I have no problems with 20mm being played in either scale, as long as they are based correctly - some of them are lrgers than old 25's - and some perfectly compatible with 15's.
Another quick point - if a new supplement has come out, and a competition is around the corner - and your absolutely favourite army list of all time is in it - it can be a real race against time to get a full competition army painted and ready in a few weeks.

Old timers like mself may have no excuses, but a bit of tolerance to include others to join in (especially betas - come on they are fun!) has to be exercised - surely.
Dax