Rule comparisons

Hi there,

Since I'm planning to play mostly Early Renaissance (say, XVIth Century, with possible excursions from Agincourt to Rocroi), I'm sitting in an uncomfortable spot between late (Basic) Impetus and Early Baroque. Since I intend to play mostly casually, something basic-sized would suit me - Basic Impetus or Basic Battles. Probably BB, perhaps including special rules taken from Baroque to better model Tercios and Reiters.

Anyway, I compared BI/I/Ba/BB and come up with a few questions.

a) BI lists refer to "polearms" and "long spears" as if they were different things (e.g. list 25.3, Heavy inf has polearms and Brigans have long spears). Yet in the rules, they seem to be treated the same (they give a bonus to large units as per para. 7.3). Is there any functionnal difference between the two ?

b) Rule 7.3 gives a bonus for "long spears and pole arms" to large units (only). Yes several armies of this period (the same 25.3 for instance) do not offer this possibility: neither heavy inf nor brigans are indicated as being allowed to form large units. Bug or feature ?

c) The difference between CP1 and CP2 seems to exist only in Basic Impetus - but not in Impetus, apparently ? Is this difference modelled somehow in I ?

d) Speaking of which, armour seems to be modelled differently in the cousin rules:
- In BI, CP1 and FP get a bonus to their cohesion roll
- In I -- nothing ?
- In Baroque, units with Cuirasse (= mostly Gendarmes and similar heavy cav, so close to CP1) get the bonus in the form of a malus to opponent #D6.

Correct ? Would you care to elaborate on the difference of philosophies ?

e) Along the same line - "massed" (baroque) vs "large" (impetus) units. Both are made of two units.
- In BI, large units get a bonus of +1/+2 (spear) or +2/4 (pike) vs foot/mounted.
- In impetus, they get +1/+2 (spear) and +1/+3 (pike) per extra unit, so +2/+6 for a full pike keil (eik !)
- In Baroque, you get a melee modifier of +2 (or +4 for ETE) to all combat.

Subtly different, so again, would you care to comment on the rationales/design philosophy/period differences ?

- BI considers the front unit to be the real fighting unit (everything calculated using its stats) but the losses are taken from the back (i.e. the back unit is a little more than a passive tank from which the losses are taken). Impetus seems to work similarly.
- I could not locate the equivalent rule for massed units in Baroque ? The ETE on the other hand has a massive VBU of 8 (+4 MM), which is not so remote from the combined VBU of 8-10 of a Swiss Keil in BI (+2/+4). But how should I take losses out of a massed ETE made of two units ? Does it have a total of 8 losses, or 8 + 8 ?

In other words :  a BI Swiss Keil has VBU of 5 with a MM of +2 (vs. foot). So a fresh keil rolls 7d6, and it can take 5 losses from the back rank before starting to loose combat capacity. If I count right, with increasing losses it goes 7 (fresh)-7 (1 loss)-7 - 7 -7 (4 losses) - 5 [back unit dies at 5 losses] -4-3-2-1 [total 10 hits]

A similar Impetus Keil should be 5+5+5. It should be able to take 15 hits, as follows (still vs. foot)
7-7-7-7-7-6-6-6-6-6-5-4-3-2-1 [15 hits]

A Baroque ETE has VBU of 8, MM+4. How does it erodes ?
(i) 12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5 [total 8 hits]
(ii) 12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12 (back unit dies, as in Impetus)-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 [total 16 hits]

f) In several army lists, similar units appear twice with different statistics. Mostly, it corresponds to variants of the same (e.g. Jinetes Veterans vs. "greens"). It is sometimes weirder, for instance Swiss Pikemen in 27.12 or 32.9 (France, 1480-1520 in round figures) are shown as 1*FP 6/3/3 and 1*FP 5/3/3. Since they must form large units, what is the point ? Obviously the stronger unit will always be in the front (it would be stupid not to), and all the tests are made using the front unit's stats... so why is the back unit different ? Apart from one less hit point, in this case 11 rather than 12 ...

g) Lastly - why are the French Gendarmes 8/5/3 before 1494, and only 8/4/3 after ? Did their quality, training, etc. decrease then ?

h) And last after last - lists for the XVIth century after 1550 seem to be rare, there are none for BI or BB, and hardly any for Baroque (unless I missed some supplement somewhere). Any pointer ?  

Thanks for all !

Hi that is a detailed list of questions! I have more of a general observation based on my experience playing original Impetus and now currently Basic Impetus including the larger great battles (essentially playing two BI armies combined). I have not played with the Impetus 2 rules or Baroque.

I think you would be best to try to the different sets of rules and then deciding which you like. I think you will tie yourself in knots trying to compare across rules and anyway that is like comparing apples and oranges.

I like Basic Impetus as a system so would recommend that as a system for a quick fun game in 2-3 hours. It is covering a massive time period though and I see it as finishing around the 1525 Pavia battle. So if you want later covering different troop types like Reiters you might be better with Baroque? I have heard it is good.

One point with Basic Impetus and the larger VBU units like Gendarmes in the renaissance period - the clashes can become slogging matches where the units just grind down slowly which can be a little bit boring.

All the best deciding and playing anyway ...

Cheers Jez

Yeah, I'm probably rationalizing too much.... Ok there is actually one semi-serious reason, namely basing. 8 cm (à la impetus) vs. 12 cm (à la Baroque). This is a rather committing choice.

Truly, a tercio would look so much better in 12 cm. But if it is not compatible with 8 cm- based units, it is a bit annoying in this context (I wonder if it is really critical for all units to have the same width, after all on the battlefield not every unit had the same frontage, surely. And a large unit is meant to be, well, large).

That aside, I think it is more curiosity, like "why were certain choices made" and "why are certain things modeled differently in the two systems".

Cheers

Hi yes after replying it prompted me to look at the Baroque rules again - for me though as the Renaissance battles I would be fighting are earlier and not using a Tercio formation I dont think that Baroque is best for me.

If you have a 8cm base you could join two units to make a 16cm base for Baroque.

Anyway I have not played Baroque so not best person to comment.

Enjoy anyway - Jez

Hi I know you were asking about lists and more are here for Baroque - French Wars of Religion is actually a possibility for me using the Impetus based figs 25mm on 12 cm bases

http://www.dadiepiombo.it/english-baroque.html