impetus
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Latest topics
» House Rules - Impetus 2
Scorpio rules EmptyThu Oct 24, 2024 1:46 pm by kenntak

» How Baroque deals with enclosed fields/ linear obstacles terrain ?
Scorpio rules EmptyTue Oct 22, 2024 10:35 am by Ste J.

» Tournament rules and scenarios for Basic Impetus
Scorpio rules EmptySat Oct 19, 2024 6:09 pm by Aurelius

» Routing at the Same Time
Scorpio rules EmptyFri Oct 18, 2024 8:21 am by kenntak

» Unrealistic missile results
Scorpio rules EmptyThu Oct 17, 2024 8:55 pm by kenntak

» BI2 Regeln auf deutsch
Scorpio rules EmptyThu Oct 17, 2024 7:14 pm by Leondegrande

» My 15mm armies so far
Scorpio rules EmptyThu Oct 17, 2024 7:01 pm by Leondegrande

» Basic Impetus 2 in 15mm
Scorpio rules EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 9:52 am by Sun of York

» Spieler in D
Scorpio rules EmptyMon Oct 07, 2024 8:04 pm by Leondegrande

Salute 2024 Battle of Pharslus 48BC

Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:44 am by ejc

Forum members welcome to take part in battle of Pharslus Saturday 13th April …

Comments: 0

Ilipa 206BC Society of Ancients Battle Day

Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:54 pm by ejc

This year's SOA Battle Day is Ilipa206BC will be about a dozen games all re …

Comments: 10

Warfare battle of Cunaxa

Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 pm by ejc

Sorry for short notice we are putting on the above scenario on Saturday 11th …

Comments: 4

SELWG 2023 Thapsus 46BC

Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:29 pm by ejc

We will putting on the above game at SELG 2023 on Sunday 15th October. Forum …

Comments: 6

Colours 2023

Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:14 pm by ejc

Sorry for very short notice. We are putting on a game at colours on Saturday …

Comments: 0

Salute 2023

Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:49 pm by jorneto

Any Impetus games in this event?

Comments: 10

November 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
252627282930 

Calendar Calendar


Scorpio rules

+5
Gaius Cassius
Tartty
Jim Webster
accard
Dennis Maxentius
9 posters

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:17 am

This is an idea for a special rule to apply to Roman armies from Caesar to Late Empire.

Roman army had a lot of artillery, above all light ones. Each legion had a good number.
So far the rules allow you to add balistas at 15pts. Ok these can represent heavier Artillery.

The rule I'm thinking at is this
1) Add Scorpio to each (any) legionary unit at +5pts
2) Scorpio can fire 2 dice up to 30U, but not a point blank (no shooting here)
3) if you move detract 1 die (per movement), if you are in disorder detract another die etc. - 1die for shooting at CL/S (standard rules)

This would improve Early Imperial and Middle Imperial army a little.

Opinions?
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1267
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:00 am

It would be nice to have a model or something with the unit, so that people can spot which unit has them and which doesn't

Scorpio rules WG-IR-CBA-2-right
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 541
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tartty Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:28 am

Are these incorporated into the unit? ....so not an actual separate unit as such ?
Tartty
Tartty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 633
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY Australia

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tartty Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:29 am

Ah ok just read your post Jim ..question answered
Tartty
Tartty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 633
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY Australia

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:30 am

the idea is to make a special rule in Avanced Impetus (like Shieldwall or Jean d'Arc) and yes incorporated in the unit.
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1267
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tartty Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:37 am

Sounds interesting. I like the idea.
Jeez these Romans are becoming very hard to deal with....now they'll be able to shoot at you as well Shocked
Tartty
Tartty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 633
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY Australia

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Dennis Maxentius Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:50 am

Not sure that all units had them all the time, so yes the +5 points per unit would work for me. Brings another aspect of history into the game.

Would they be available to all units or only elite type units?
Dennis Maxentius
Dennis Maxentius
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 224
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Australia

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:02 pm

I was thinking to allow to all troops classed as legionaries for simplicity.
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1267
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:52 pm

I think you could limit the dates.
I'm not sure there's much evidence for it before Augustus as an integral part of the legion, and with the later Roman legions they seem to have separated the artillery off into separate legions solely of artillery.
So I'd say restrict it to Early and Middle Imperial.

Jim
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 541
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:12 pm

So no Caesar?
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1267
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:12 pm

One option could be also to limit to VBU 6 legionaries, so not to raw legions.
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1267
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:17 pm

dadiepiombo wrote:So no Caesar?

There appears to be a divergence of opinion.
I'll check
Jim
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 541
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:05 pm

Right.
The problem is that the best source is Vegetius 2.25, the mobile field artillery component of
each legion consisted of 10 stone-throwers (onagri) and 55 boltshooters (carroballistae) each manned by 11 men.

But he's right at the end of the Empire and looking back and he gets his eras mixed up.

We know that each of Caesar’s and Pompey’s
legions had an equestrian officer called praefectus fabrum (and/or castrum?) and/or architect in charge of the siege equipment (mining equipment, towers, shed, rams etc.), baggage, artillery (arrow/dart/spear shooting scorpions/catapults and stone-shooting
ballistae) and camps.

But we Caesar never talks about using artillery in field battles, (for example Gaul) and it seemed to be restricted to sieges in Gaul. But we do hear of it being used in the civil war. But some of their field battles were actually fighting between lines of encirclement and similar so were virtually sieges

And we do know that the legions lost their artillery in the late Empire.

So I'd suggest that for Caesar (indeed up until Augustus and the Empire) legions have have this integral artillery if they start behind field fortifications, and if they move, they lose the artillery. Because there's no evidence that the artillery at the time was mobile or was used 'in field battles'

For Early and Middle Imperial, then ALL legions, however good or bad, are equally entitled to them. And because they had Ballista mounted on carts, they can move with the legion.

Then with Late Roman the legions lose this ability entirely, but you can buy the artillery to use as artillery units.

Jim
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 541
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Dennis Maxentius Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:41 pm

Well done Jim, thanks for the info. I think the reasoning is good and would work within the rules and the various lists.
Dennis Maxentius
Dennis Maxentius
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 224
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Australia

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by starkadder Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:46 am

Not convinced that you need a model for them, Jim, although I have a separate stand for mine. Wouldn't it be acceptable to copy the hamippoi approach and simply pay the points without necessarily including the figures?

Possibly a button indicator that they they are so equipped? I tend to agree that the lower the grade the less likely they would be to be equipped with artillery.

The Marian ("Caesarean") Romans in the rule-set don't even rate them. This is odd to me as that's the only "official" list for late Republicans. The recent beta includes them.
starkadder
starkadder
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 309
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 70
Location : Tahmoor, NSW, Oz

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:43 am

Remember that under the Empire a legion is a legion is a legion.
During the late republic legions were hastily equipped, under-strength, recruited from men who wouldn't have been admitted in time of peace, and were probably short of equipment. So if not everybody has armour, it's not surprising if it hasn't got artillery.
But under Augustus and his men, a legion is raised (which didn't happen every generation) and equipped without the same sense of frantic haste. A lower grade legion is one where the men have 'gone to seed', normally because they've been billeted in a city in the East rather than remaining in camp.
They didn't lose their artillery because of this, they lost their discipline and their toughness.

Jim
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 541
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:43 am

Remember that under the Empire a legion is a legion is a legion.
During the late republic legions were hastily equipped, under-strength, recruited from men who wouldn't have been admitted in time of peace, and were probably short of equipment. So if not everybody has armour, it's not surprising if it hasn't got artillery.
But under Augustus and his men, a legion is raised (which didn't happen every generation) and equipped without the same sense of frantic haste. A lower grade legion is one where the men have 'gone to seed', normally because they've been billeted in a city in the East rather than remaining in camp.
They didn't lose their artillery because of this, they lost their discipline and their toughness.

Jim
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 541
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:54 am

Remember that under the Empire a legion is a legion is a legion.
During the late republic legions were hastily equipped, under-strength, recruited from men who wouldn't have been admitted in time of peace, and were probably short of equipment. So if not everybody has armour, it's not surprising if it hasn't got artillery.
But under Augustus and his men, a legion is raised (which didn't happen every generation) and equipped without the same sense of frantic haste. A lower grade legion is one where the men have 'gone to seed', normally because they've been billeted in a city in the East rather than remaining in camp.
They didn't lose their artillery because of this, they lost their discipline and their toughness.

Jim
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 541
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:42 am

oh yes, a simple model but even a marker can fit the role. I plan to put a couple of scorpio models in my EIR bases.
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1267
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:20 am

dadiepiombo wrote:oh yes, a simple model but even a marker can fit the role. I plan to put a couple of scorpio models in my EIR bases.

I think it would be a pity not to use some sort of marker, there's some beautiful toys out there Cool

Jim
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 541
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by starkadder Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:08 am

There is a similar issue in 18th Century gaming where attached battalion guns are often either not acknowledged or not represented.

I am not advocating any standard artillery issue, Jim. I agree that the late Republic could be very scrappy. Just suggesting that it could be a paid-for factor in a stand.
starkadder
starkadder
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 309
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 70
Location : Tahmoor, NSW, Oz

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Dennis Maxentius Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:33 am

Which Beta list are you referring to Starky?   I was also under the impression that the locally recruited troops (discipline C) lacked artillery as an integral part of the unit.   I would advocate a model if it is a separate unit but possibly a marker if it's integral.   Basing a Scorpio on a base with foot troops would be rather crowded and would overemphasise the artillery piece I would think. Leave it up to the individual I guess, whatever fits and looks good.


Last edited by Dennis Maxentius on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Dennis Maxentius
Dennis Maxentius
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 224
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Australia

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by starkadder Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:45 am

The one you've been working on, DM.

Marian list
starkadder
starkadder
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 309
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 70
Location : Tahmoor, NSW, Oz

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Dennis Maxentius Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:51 am

Thought that's what you meant. But it hasn't been made an official Beta List yet.
Dennis Maxentius
Dennis Maxentius
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 224
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Australia

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:28 am

There are some in game limitations that need to be addressed to avoid abuse.

Firstly they should be modelled, even if that means a model placed behind the legions so equipped. Otherwise there is a very real risk of abuse or confusion as to which unit has them.

Secondly there needs to be some thought as to how they work in game - are they treated as artillery when applying effects - ie fire against fortifications etc or are we saying they are just another normal shooting attack??

On a similar note how do they move and what happens to them in combat - normal artillery just evaporate on contact so does a Legion that has them lose them if pushed back (another reason to put a model in there somewhere)

I like the idea but it needs some thought.

I'd also like someone to define what a Legion is in this case - we already have some Roman artillery available in the lists - this seems to be in addition to that and I'm not convinced that should be the case
Cyrus The Adequate
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 566
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

Back to top Go down

Scorpio rules Empty Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum