EARLY ACHAEMENID PERSIANS (550-420 BC) Questions

Reading the minimum requirement for the Sparabara units it states:
4-12 T Sparabara - 17 points - Pavise
+ T Sparabara - 13 points - Short Bow A

Does this mean that I must have a minimum of 4 Sparabara with Pavise and another 4 Sparabara with Short Bow A or is it a minimum of 2 of each type for a total of 4 units?

Does this mean that I MUST have them as a large unit or can I just have the Pavise equipped unit as a normal unit?

If I run them as a Large Unit, do the front and rear units both shoot?   If so, do they shoot separately or do they shoot with a combined total?

Same question for Immortals and Assyrian and Chaldean units.

Also, how have others based their figs?   I was looking at one base consisting of the front row as Spearmen with Pavise and the back row armed with Short Bow.   In a Large Unit the Rear Unit would be the same setup.   That sound OK?

Cheers,

Dennis

Anyone have any comments???

You must form Large Units and 4 is the minima (that in most cases, if you play with less than 500pts, are anyway halved)

Just the second rank fires (pavese is just a protection) and it fires measauring from the front like all LU with shooters as a second rank.

Thanks Lorenzo. Once I have the minimum of 4 LU, can I then have normal T units (not LU) with Pavise that can shoot or must they all be LU?

All must be LU Dennis you can't split them.

I'm doing 12 figs in the front and 10 figs on the back stand (28mm). So front stand is first rank spear with bow behind them then second stand all bow. They were essentially very deep bow units.

Tarty wrote:All must be LU Dennis you can't split them.

I'm doing 12 figs in the front and 10 figs on the back stand (28mm). So front stand is first rank spear with bow behind them then second stand all bow. They were essentially very deep bow units.

Sounds nice. Whose figures and where are your pics?

Thanks Tarty.   Was hoping I could run both types of units, but hey, you can't have everything.   I am currently painting up 9 figs per base, 5 figs in front rank with pavise and 4 figs in rear rank with bow.   Second unit is the same.   Immortals have 6 front and 5 rear.   This configuration shows how many VBU the unit starts with if you count the figs in the rear rank on each base.

I am using Wargames Factory figs.   Not too bad but a pain to assemble and you have to work to make any detail stand out.   I already had 120 figs and I didn't want to buy anything else so I'm making do.

Yes the Sparabara are always large units. Historically we don't know of any occasions where they fought in any other formation. It seems that historically they just abandoned the formation altogether

It may have been too inflexible for 'Imperial Policing'

Jim

Well it is historical because they were all predominantly bow armed and the Sparabara were introduced to provide protection to the bowmen when they came under fire or moved about. LU seems fair enough but then the front Unit should shoot as well. How about Front Unit fires at normal VBU and Rear Unit fires at -2. Or am I being greedy because I am now painting my own army?

Dennis Maxentius wrote: LU seems fair enough but then the front Unit should shoot as well.   How about Front Unit fires at normal VBU and Rear Unit fires at -2.   Or am I being greedy because I am now painting my own army?  
 

This was talked over a fair bit on the old forum yes it's a shame you lose your ability to fire when the back stand is gone but as you say can't have it all.
Both capable of firing would be too much btw ..... and there would be an argument for it to flow over into other armies as well .... can of worms

Let's open that can of worms I say

Think the mix as it stands is about right if both could shoot it would be devastating

The majority of the Persians were bowmen with the front rank only having the Spara and short spear to protect them.

How about only the Rear Unit can fire but with +1 as long as it is still a LU and if Rear Unit is eliminated, the Front Unit can fire but at -1????

It is a bit odd to have the back unit determine the firing of the large T unit. In most large units the back unit feeds the front and keeps it going. It seems to me that in this case the front T unit should be the firing unit and the back T unit keeps it firing at full value until it is gone. Historically the Sparabara were mostly bow units with a rank or two of spear at the front.

It is a bloody counter intuitive situation and I think after playing then for a couple of years Lorenzo got them wrong. The problem isn't that they should be large units, the problem is that they lose their missile firing capability after the rear rank has taken casualties. Fixing them would be very simple - keep the Large Units but move the bow to the front rank. That would pretty much deal with the whole problem, and require 1 line of amendment in the list

Of course convincing Lorenzo is another matter

And still keep all the abilities of the existing front unit ?

So that front unit would now cost 24 pts instead of 17pts ?

In other words
1 Imp =1pt
Dis B =5pts
4 VD =8pts
SB A = 7pts
Pavise = 3pts

Total 24pts

Yes - BUT the rear rank unit would be reduced in price as it no longer has the bow

Ok would be interesting to hear what he thinks about that.

So 24pts front unit and 13pts for the rear for a total of 37pts as opposed to 30pts for the 'old' style and 1VD each.

Not sure about the back rank cost - the rear rank are Impetus 0 not 1, so I make that 11 pts. Also not sure if the rear rank should get a 25% discount for being a LU - probably not?? if so the cost comes down to 9???

Oh your not giving them bow that's right.

With bow and 0 impetus minus the 25% comes to 13 pts as per the list for the rear.
Don't know how you could get around not giving them a bow considering the other concession   hehe

Could be a can of worms ? don't know how a change like this could effect other armies.

I agree that the large T unit should function like a large FP with the front unit being the unit that forms the basis of the calculation. I notice that the Skutatoi with Bow has the VBU4 bow in the back rank at 14 points.

Large T units are pretty rare in Impetus so I don't think this effects things much.

They don't have a bow - thats why you don't pay for it - same as at the moment, the front rank don't have a bow. If you give both ranks a bow you need to allow both to shoot, and that IS a can of worms. At the moment theyre a very odd fish, basically in trying to build a missile unit with more longevity Lorenzo created a poor melee unit with a limited missile capability.

Gaius Cassius wrote:I agree that the large T unit should function like a large FP with the front unit being the unit that forms the basis of the calculation. I notice that the Skutatoi with Bow has the VBU4 bow in the back rank at 14 points.

Large T units are pretty rare in Impetus so I don't think this effects things much.

Large T units are almost unique to Persians. Most other mixed missile and melee troops are front rank FP (or FL) and rear rank T. Much as I hate to say it, the T class and VBU4 is about right, the front rank is just that - one rank with Spara and short spear, so not really like the other mixed formations. The problem is that 90%+ of the formation has bows but you lose all missile capability after suffering only 50% losses. Putting the bow in the front is a far better historical representation - you get some benefit from depth but you avoid the devastating missile fire you would get if they were allowed to shoot both ranks

I couldn't agree more. Not paying for a bow at the back would work for me.

Yup - as I read the historical evolution of the troops these represent they are the logical end point of the "shielded archer" concept that evolved in the middle east at the time, that had been seen in Assyrian and Babylonian armies. They were developed as a result of the threat posed initially by light chariots and then by light horse. Against these types of opponent they performed well. From the historical record "Persian" infantry also maintained an ability to take the fight to the opponent, and performed well in terrain, although they faired badly when they ran into heavily armoured Greek infantry, they didn't always lose and clearly had an expectation that they could win. I like to think the Hoplite is in many ways an anachronism from the development of middle eastern warfare, something discarded by the rest of the world who moved on to more sophisticated all arms approach. Maybe a bit like the Russians when they invaded Afghanistan and found their AK47 equipped infantry were outranged by Afghans with 100 year old Lee Enfield rifles.

Performance in Impetus is mixed. As a shooting unit in a 1-1 situation they are surprisingly good. Shortbow A combined with pavaise can shoot it out with almost anyone including crossbow and longbows. The problem is the high cost means they are never in a 1-1 shooting situation - you can buy 3 C class VBU 3 shooters for the cost of 1 Spara block, and although the Spara will start well, their inability to keep shooting will mean they almost certainly lose. Performance against light horse and against most cavalry is ok while they retain full VBU on the rear rank, however once they suffer any sort of casualties their shooting effectiveness is minimal - which is the crux of the problem. In melee they are very brittle - VBU 4 troops can simply dissolve on contact, and in most occasions the rear rank does nothing other than prolong the agony for 1 more melee, which in Impetus is immediate. They do undoubtedly have an advantage in having an impetus value - they can choose to try and counter charge or even seize the initiative and charge themselves, which makes them handy against warband, but the Pavaise restricts them to a 5U move so this advantage is rarely decisive. A charge downhill at a disordered opponent has occasionally worked :-) but you always have the spectre of VBU4.  One point sometimes missed is that they are only VBU1 (2 in total) so you can build up quite a large group without upsetting army balance - except they are too expensive in points! I was happy when the double rank thing was first introduced - in beta lists they had been single ranked Shortbow B which didnt seem right for a unit that fought almost twice as deep as some Hoplites. Experience has taught me this is was a false hope and the reality is they get no real advantage from being in deep formations at all.

IF the shortbow A was in the front rank however I think they would be both more historically correct and more viable as a unit, making the AEP army much more viable too.

I have not mentioned Immortals - at VBU5 they are slightly less vulnerable but suffer the same problems as the Spara. Upgrading them to Disc A makes them more "interesting" but the cost is 46 points each paired unit so unlikely to happen a lot