Impetus 2 - Discipline Tests as a result of Reaction

Hi
There is some confusion in our small wargaming group as to when a unit can use the modifier for having a commander attached when taking a discipline test as a result of a reaction.

Under 4.1.3 Reactions and Evasions by the Inactive Player, on page 24, first column, it clearly says,
“There is always a –1 modifier in the test if the Unit that decides to react is in Disorder. Other modifiers to test are present in the paragraphs dedicated to specific reactions”. This seems pretty unambiguous.

So looking at the relevant paragraphs individually:

Opportunity Charge (5.7.3), a unit or group only has to take a discipline test if the unit is Disordered and then with the usual -1 modifier for being Disordered. No mention of a modifier for having an attached commander. It is mentioned about having an attached commander only if a card is used.

Counter-Charge (5.7.4), The Modifiers to the Discipline Test for Counter charges are listed as -1 If in Disorder, +2 If Mounted. Again no mention of having an attached commander.

Closing ranks (5.9), again, looking at the list of modifiers (page 31) there is no mention of a modifier for attached commanders.

Opportunity Fire (6.5), (note it is called “Opportunity Fire” on page 22, but on page 39 the heading for 6.5 is ‘Reaction Fire’).  Yet again no mention of a modifier for having a commander attached.

Defensive Fire (6.7 page 40), again no mention of a modifier for having a commander attached.

So is it correct that when taking a Discipline test for the above reactions a unit does not get any modifiers for having a commander attached (bearing in mind the statement on page 24 mentioned above)?

Whilst not directly relevant it may be worth pointing out that there is no mention of a modifier for having a commander attached when taking a Discipline test for a unit wishing to evade (5.12 page 33) but there is a modifier for having a commander attached when taking a Discipline test for a Frenzy Test for Impetuous units charging (5.8 page 30).

On the QRS, under the column DISCIPLINE TEST there is a heading “GENERIC MODIFIERS/RALLY where having an attached Leader is +1/+2. Confusingly (to me at least) in the same column under the FRENZY TEST heading there is no mention of a modifier for having an attached commander where there is in the text (see paragraph above).

So the basic question is does a unit get a modifier for having a commander attached when taking a Disciple test as a result of a ‘Reaction’.

Apologies for being long winded but it would be great to hear any thoughts on the above and in particular it would be really useful to have some clarification from Lorenzo.

Cheers (slightly confused) Paul

Great question and I really appreciate you quoting the rules. Ultimately only Lorenzo can answer this with total authority but the QRS certainly makes clear that attached commanders are a general modifier applying to all situations unless so noted (Disengagement for instance.) Take a look at 2.7.1.3 where it states that +1/+2 is added by Commanders for DTs. In each reaction example the listed modifiers are those that are specifically relevant to that reaction.

As an aside Opportunity Charge is a charge in response to a ZOC violation and is automatic for units in good order. Only units in disorder need to roll and that is where an attached commander add's his value.

Hi Gaius

Thanks for the comments and you are probably right!

But regarding the QRS and it making clear that, “attached commanders are a general modifier applying to all situations unless so noted”, then why are attached commanders specifically mentioned in the text regarding Frenzy Tests for charging impetuous units (5.8 page 30)? Surely using your criteria for the QRS it wouldn’t need to be mentioned in the text? That’s why I’m left wondering if the bit on page 24 under 4.1.3 Reactions and Evasions by the Inactive Player, where it says, “Other modifiers to test are present in the paragraphs dedicated to specific reactions” really means what it says. That said, of course Frenzy and Disengagement Tests are not ‘Reactions’ anyway.

As I said I suspect that you are probably correct anyway, I’m just hoping to have some final clarification from Lorenzo.

Cheers Paul

Hi At the risk of making a complete fool of myself.
doesn't it talk about this in 2.4.1 on page 8.

The discipline test.

point 2 under modifiers
"Units and Groups that have a commander with them get a +1/+2 (according to leader) bonus to the roll."

sorry if that's wrong I am bad at interpreting rules. but enjoy reading these questions as I find them incredibly helpful.

Thanks Roundie. 2.4.1 helps clarify the situation. The basis of the QRS is in this section. The last line of 2.4.1 is clarifying as well; "Some other modifiers [beyond Unit discipline rating, command range and Commander bonus] can be added according to the reaction the Unit or Group want to perform."

I find the questions and the working out the solutions one of the principal ways of learning the rules. The "working out" can be by me or reading some else's thoughts (like yours!)

Greetings,
If my understanding of the rules is correct, the following summary for the Discipline Test Modifiers for all situations would be accurate:

Generic Modifier
* General Attached to the Unit/Group [+1/+2]
* Unit/Group Outside Range of Command (Not Applicable to S units) [-1]

1. Modifiers for RALLY
* Just the Generic Modifiers (Attached General & Out of RofC)

2. Modifiers for OPPORTUNITY CHARGE (Only if Unit is Disordered)
* The Generic Modifiers (Attached General & Out of RofC) Plus the following
* If Unit reacting is in Disorder [-1]

3. Modifiers for OPPORTUNITY FIRE (also Reaction Fire)
* The Generic Modifiers (Attached General & Out of RofC) Plus the following
* If Unit reacting is in Disorder [-1]

4. Modifiers for DEFENSIVE FIRE (all units except ART C)
* The Generic Modifiers (Attached General & Out of RofC) Plus the following
* If the Unit Reaction is T (Missile Troops) [+2]
* If the Unit Reacting is Mounted [-1]
* If Unit Reacting is in Disorder [-1]
* If the Enemy Unit Charged with More than ONE Move [-1]

5. Modifiers for COUNTER-CHARGE (Charger must enter Frontal Corridor)
* The Generic Modifiers (Attached General & Out of RofC) Plus the following
* If the Unit Reacting is Mounted [+2]
* If Unit Reacting is in Disorder [-1]

6. Modifiers for CLOSE RANKS (if FP/FL Charged by Mounted except EL)
* The Generic Modifiers (Attached General & Out of RofC) Plus the following
* If the Unit Reaction is FP [+1]
* If the Enemy Unit Charging is CM or CL [-1]
* If Unit Reacting is in Disorder [-1]

7. Modifiers for EVASION (Not a Reaction and not applied the RofC Modifier)
* General Attached to the Unit/Group [+1/+2]
* If the Unit Evading is S or CL [+1]
* If is S or Mounted Unit Evading from Foot [+1]
* If Unit Evading is in Disorder [-1]
* For each subsequent Evading attempt after the First [-1]

8. Modifiers for FRENZY (for Impetuous Group to Charge as a Group)
* The Generic Modifiers (Attached General & Out of RofC) Plus the following
* If Group Charging is Fragmented [-1]

9. Modifiers for DISENGAGEMENT (For faster Troops in Melee except FP, ART and W))
* Just the Generic Modifiers (Attached General & Out of RofC)

Can a more advanced player confirm?
I hope that I am positively contributing for the discussion. If not, please accept my apologies in advance. Thanks to you all, LS

Hi LS

Thanks for contributing! I suspect the way you have laid it out is correct (but would still like Lorenzo to confirm). It's just a shame the rule book is not as clear as your post.


Cheers Paul

Hello LSouriatus,
Your list of modifiers to the DT for all situations is really great, and a big help in making the rules more easily understood !.
Cannot confirm if list is totally correct, and am happy to defer to wiser minds than mine !.However I have noted one error, and that is in the list of modifiers for Evasion. Point 3 on your list ' Mounted or S evading from Foot '.According to the main rules p33 5.12 Evasion Modifiers to die roll for DT for Evasion it says at Point 2 : +1 If Mounted or S evading from CHARGING Foot . I presume the main rules are correct and it is written incorrectly on the QRS. Could someone confirm this is correct or not ?.

Thanks for the list though.Must print this off !.

Hi Ya
I don't think there is anything wrong with the evasion list presented above. Foot (or any unit) can only contact an enemy unit by charging it. Evasion is in response to charges or being shot at. So the only way you can be "evading from foot" (QRS) is if it is charging you.

IMO Both of you guys have it right and the word charging is helpful in them, but for me it doesn't change anything by it's absence.

You should probably amend the Evasion bonus for attached commanders to Units only since Groups cannot evade.

7. Modifiers for EVASION (Not a Reaction and not applied the RofC Modifier)
* General Attached to the Unit [+1/+2]

General attatched always counts and probably is the reason I didn't repeat every time. In the frenzy test I suppose to have it mention as it is very important to have an attatched leader to control your troops

Hi

Lorenzo, many thanks for the clarification/confirmation above.

Cheers Paul