Some more Neie Questions

Hi again

1) As I understand the rules a unit that is placed on opportunity can react and interrupt an active unit outside of its ZOC up to its normal movement distance in order to:-
(I) charge that unit if that shoots at it
(II) moves into its frontal area (IE extended ZOC)
(III) or counter charge.

Is that correct?

2) A unit of CL is 9U from a unit of CM which is on OPP. The CL player announces that the unit will shoot javelins at the CM then charge. The CM player announces that the unit will react to the shooting and charge at the CL.

A)The CL player rolls shooting dice and the CM charges, does the CL still get its impetus bonus in the melee as the CL announced it was going to charge or does the CM charge take place when the CL is shooting and catches them prior to the CL's charge commences?

B) If the CL's shooting hit the CM and disordered it, does the CM still charge, or is the charge halted because the unit is now disordered and no longer on OPP

3) Can a disordered CM evade, if it passes a discipline test?

4) Do formed troops project a ZOC through S & CL troops?

5) In its first move A Unit of formed troops moves into the ZOC of S units in a direct line towards them but stops 1U in front them. The formed troops decide to make a second move and charge at some formed troops behind the S units. Can the S units still shoot at the formed troops then disperse, because the movement originally started outside the S ZOC.

6) Can a unit eligible to evade, evade if the movement/shooting took place at point blank range?

Cheers

Ron

Hannibal Barca wrote:
1) As I understand the rules a unit that is placed on opportunity can react and interrupt an active unit outside of its ZOC up to its normal movement distance in order to:-
              (I) charge that unit if that shoots at it
              (II) moves into its frontal area (IE extended ZOC)
              (III) or counter charge.

It can shoot at a target in range, it can charge a target in range (including charge bonus). It does this by interrupting the enemy unit's move at any point it chooses, from the moment it is nominated to be activated until its turn is complete.

Hannibal Barca wrote:
2) A unit of CL is 9U from a unit of CM which is on OPP. The CL player announces that the unit will shoot javelins at the CM then charge. The CM player announces that the unit will react to the shooting and charge at the CL.

A)The CL player rolls shooting dice and the CM charges, does the CL still get its impetus bonus in the melee as the CL announced it was going to charge or does the CM charge take place when the CL is shooting and catches them prior to the CL's charge commences?

B) If the CL's shooting hit the CM and disordered it, does the CM still charge, or is the charge halted because the unit is now disordered and no longer on OPP

A) A couple of things here, the CL does not need to declare its actions for the turn. The OPP unit can react at any point, so as the CL declare they shoot, the CM charge. The CL get to shoot (as they would if the CM chose to shoot). The CL don't get impetus because they are not charging and not even declared as charging - the CM is responding to the shooting.

B) If the CM declared the Opp Charge before being shot, it charges. If disordered by shooting in the process the disorder counts in melee.

Hannibal Barca wrote:
3) Can a disordered CM evade, if it passes a discipline test?

No they follow the rules in 5.11.1 as they apply to CL and the final paragraph says "you cannot be in disorder", granted that assumes a second move but must still apply to CM

Hannibal Barca wrote:
4) Do formed troops project a ZOC through S & CL troops?

A ZOC extends 5U - there is nothing that blocks it, although due to interpenetration and LOS the ability to react may be nullified by an interposing unit.

Hannibal Barca wrote:
5) In its first move A Unit of formed troops moves into the ZOC of S units in a direct line towards them but stops 1U in front them. The formed troops decide to make a second move and charge at some formed troops behind the S units. Can the S units still shoot at the formed troops then disperse, because the movement originally started outside the S ZOC.  

No because they can only fire at chargers - the original move wasn't a charge

Hannibal Barca wrote:
6) Can a unit eligible to evade, evade if the movement/shooting took place at point blank range?

Yes, there is no such restriction to stop that. Other than Dispersion.

Hope that's correct

For question 3, I think a disordered CM may be able to make a single evade, assuming the disorder wasn't caused by an earlier evade that turn.

The relevant rule for CL says 'If you want to evade for more than one movement phase you cannot be in disorder....'. I've assumed that allows a disordered CL (or S) a single evade move (evading for only one movement phase). The difference for CM is that the CM must make a discipline test before making the evade. If that discipline test is failed, the evade doesn't occur.

Presumably a (non-disordered) CM that tried to make multiple evades, in multiple phases, would have to make a discipline test at both the start and end of its second or subsequent evades, but I've never seen that happen.

Otherwise I agree with all Zippee's answers. I was particularly gratified by the answer to 2B (units on opportunity being able to charge even when shot at to disorder) because I encountered the opposite view, which rather defeated the reason I'd put the unit on opportunity in the first place.

RogerC

The "other" interpretation is that if the shooting disorders the unit on opportunity then that unit is no longer on opportunity (disordered units cannot be on opportunity) and thus the unit formerly on opportunity cannot charge.

Opportunity is very very dependent on when actions are called.

For instance, if you have a CP unit on opportunity that is 2 movement pulses away from a unit of enemy CP then if the enemy CP make their first move and before your opponent calls that they will make a subsequent charge move you declare that your unit will Opportunity charge him then he is caught flat footed and gets no Impetus bonus whereas you do.

A very tricky and nasty little rule that can spoil many an opponent's carefully laid plans.

With regard to evasion some dim distant memory makes me think that you can always have 1 evasion per enemy charging you even if you are disordered, it is only when you want to perform the second evasion you cannot do so in a disordered state, although somewhat paradoxically you are allowed to do so if a different unit charges you.

If the S unit that is in the way of the charge chooses to stand then they engage the enemy in melee and are dispersed but may do some damage. The enemy is allowed to complete their movement for that phase only and may not make an additional move phase that turn if the completion of the movement that saw them contact the S unit is not sufficient for them to charge the unit behind the S.

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:With regard to evasion some dim distant memory makes me think that you can always have 1 evasion per enemy charging you even if you are disordered, it is only when you want to perform the second evasion you cannot do so in a disordered state, although somewhat paradoxically you are allowed to do so if a different unit charges you.

I have the same memory but I cannot find it in the rules or amendments thus decided to answer the question accordingly rather than sow doubt.

Another simple question, begging a yes/no answer that could easily be dropped into the amendment sheet and an Extra

Disordered CM can still evade if they pass a discipline test. Lorenzo ruled on that a while back. I remember this because I often fight with CM armies and up to his ruling we did not allow CM to evade disordered.

In the original discussion of CM evading being in good order was a requirement but in the final version of the rule it was not included. If you notice the rule for CM evading in Advance Impetus disorder is not included.

"Amendment to paragraph 5.11.1. Also Medium Cavalry (CM) and Light War Chariots (CGL ) can evade but only if they pass a Discipline Test or are on Opportunity. If the test is failed the Unit is not disordered and must stay in place."

Again a forum post ruling isn't sufficient. The rule as written in Advanced is inconclusive. It would be simplicity itself to "even if already disordered" to the statement.

It is not a Forum posting. The rule in AI does not list good order as a precondition for CM evading. In the original discussions around the concept of CM evading on the old Forum good order was a precondition. I never really looked at the final version when AI came out until it was pointed on the old Forum that CM do not need to be in good order to evade. I then looked at AI and they were right. I agree with you Zippee that additional clarification would be ideal but since CM mirrors CL and S evading with the only difference being that CM must pass a discipline test (CL and S are automatic) the rule in AI does make sense as written. That is since disordered CL and S can evade (once) so can disordered CM (by passing a DT.)

Gaius Cassius wrote: I agree with you Zippee that additional clarification would be ideal but since CM mirrors CL and S evading with the only difference being that CM must pass a discipline test (CL and S are automatic) the rule in AI does make sense as written. That is since disordered CL and S can evade (once) so can disordered CM (by passing a DT.)

I think it's downright esoteric! You'll note that in neither 5.11.1 or Ai does it actually say you can evade if disordered. It is merely implied as the last paragraph speaks of disorder in terms of a second move.

Zippee wrote:No they follow the rules in 5.11.1 as they apply to CL and the final paragraph says "you cannot be in disorder", granted that assumes a second move but must still apply to CM

Quite possibly a translation issue but as written both 5.11.1 and the AI amendment are far from clear - you are relying on the fact that it does not specify an exemption for evade over the far more common presumption that Disorder does prevent reactive movement/action.

What do you make Zippee of the following in 5.11.1?

"If you want to Evade for more than one movement phase you cannot be in Disorder and must pass a Discipline test like for multiple movement phases."

It seems to my reading that Evade works exactly like regular movement. In the case of disordered units that means they are entitled to one movement phase (no one disputes that disordered units have one movement phase in their activation.) CL and S automatically evade and CM must pass a DT. But otherwise they function exactly the same whether in good order or disordered. Seems pretty clear to me.

Thanks for the replies, I had been playing that Dis CM could evade if they passed a DT, but was unclear after reading the relevant rules. Oddly enough the clearest ruling on this was on the QRS.

Ron

Gaius Cassius wrote:What do you make Zippee of the following in 5.11.1?

"If you want to Evade for more than one movement phase you cannot be in Disorder and must pass a Discipline test like for multiple movement phases."

It seems to my reading that Evade works exactly like regular movement. In the case of disordered units that means they are entitled to one movement phase (no one disputes that disordered units have one movement phase in their activation.) CL and S automatically evade and CM must pass a DT. But otherwise they function exactly the same whether in good order or disordered. Seems pretty clear to me.  

Don't get me wrong GC, I agree with you but we shouldn't have to read between the lines, guess that because something isn't said it was deliberate, etc. This is especially important with updates because all the link rules aren't updated accordingly. For instance 2.6.3 makes no statement on disorder and evade - it's silent.

To be honest a simple addition to the opening line of para 2 in 2.6.3 to the effect -"A Disordered Unit can move, shoot [not fire!*], charge, evade, pursue or take any other action available to a non-disordered unit except where specifically prohibited" would remove any such doubt.

And, less it be misunderstood, I'm harping on about these little changes because L is working on 2ed - these changes to wording need to be emphasised now so they can be dealt with in the 2ed manuscript.

*Pet peeve - all references should be to shooting not firing

CM evade like S or CL, simply they have to test.
In the original idea CM was required not to be in disorder. The English version omitted this, while in the Italian version was present.
As a choice I decided to uniform to the English version of the rule, so even if in Disorder a CM can try to evade.

A unit in disorder can anyway evade once, but from the same enemy. If you are charged from a different enemy that this is a new evasion.

As an aside I think a "complete" FAQ section would help (also to improve the texting in I2). But I need help on this. I need help in creating the questions and editing the answers.

dadiepiombo wrote:As an aside I think a "complete" FAQ section would help (also to improve the texting in I2). But I need help on this. I need help in creating the questions and editing the answers.

Advanced Impetus is a great start - all we can do is make the statements here on the forum. We'll ask, we'll debate, we'll suggest - you make the decision

dadiepiombo wrote:As an aside I think a "complete" FAQ section would help (also to improve the texting in I2). But I need help on this. I need help in creating the questions and editing the answers.

I would rather you spend the time on the new version than to work on an up-date to this version of the rules.

warchariot wrote:

dadiepiombo wrote:As an aside I think a "complete" FAQ section would help (also to improve the texting in I2). But I need help on this. I need help in creating the questions and editing the answers.

I would rather you spend the time on the new version than to work on an up-date to this version of the rules.

I think L meant a FAQ section that would apply to both - remember 2ed is essentially meant to be an updated version not whole new cloth. So collecting the missing phrases, tightened clauses and clarifications is fundamental to the writing of 2ed.

As such I would imagine it would be impossible to spend time on 2ed without working on an update to 1ed

FAQ would help not to miss things in I2.
be aware it is impossible for any set of rules to host clarifications, examples etc for any aspect of the game. Really impossible.

But a list of FAQ could help.

I would suggest to start to collect questions basing on what arised in the forum. I will try to give an officia answer to any. I will see shich of the faq could be better cleared in the rule and what can remain in the faq.