impetus
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Latest topics
» Unrealistic missile results
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptyYesterday at 8:55 pm by kenntak

» BI2 Regeln auf deutsch
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptyYesterday at 7:14 pm by Leondegrande

» My 15mm armies so far
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptyYesterday at 7:01 pm by Leondegrande

» Basic Impetus 2 in 15mm
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 9:52 am by Sun of York

» House Rules - Impetus 2
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 2:06 am by Tartty

» Tournament rules and scenarios for Basic Impetus
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptyMon Oct 07, 2024 9:36 pm by Leondegrande

» Spieler in D
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptyMon Oct 07, 2024 8:04 pm by Leondegrande

» Melee - Importance of Controlling Order of Attacks
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptyMon Oct 07, 2024 10:36 am by kenntak

» Trojan list
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? EmptyMon Oct 07, 2024 10:11 am by Joao Especial

Salute 2024 Battle of Pharslus 48BC

Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:44 am by ejc

Forum members welcome to take part in battle of Pharslus Saturday 13th April …

Comments: 0

Ilipa 206BC Society of Ancients Battle Day

Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:54 pm by ejc

This year's SOA Battle Day is Ilipa206BC will be about a dozen games all re …

Comments: 10

Warfare battle of Cunaxa

Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 pm by ejc

Sorry for short notice we are putting on the above scenario on Saturday 11th …

Comments: 4

SELWG 2023 Thapsus 46BC

Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:29 pm by ejc

We will putting on the above game at SELG 2023 on Sunday 15th October. Forum …

Comments: 6

Colours 2023

Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:14 pm by ejc

Sorry for very short notice. We are putting on a game at colours on Saturday …

Comments: 0

Salute 2023

Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:49 pm by jorneto

Any Impetus games in this event?

Comments: 10

October 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031   

Calendar Calendar


German Catholic army- Tartshiers?

4 posters

Go down

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Empty German Catholic army- Tartshiers?

Post by rage13fury Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:27 pm

I have a German Catholic army which I used for FOGR - but having played a couple of games now I am definitely going to be using Baroque. In the FOGR army lists they had a troop type called Tartshiers - which seemed to be close combat sword & buckler armed troops.

Does anyone know what these actually were, as I can't find any reference to them on the internet?

And if they are an actual troop type how would they be classified in Baroque?

Dik.

rage13fury
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 6
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2016-04-09

Back to top Go down

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Empty Re: German Catholic army- Tartshiers?

Post by dadiepiombo Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:28 pm

I think they could be troops integrated in the tercios, more typical for the earlier period. But I will do a research.
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1267
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Empty Re: German Catholic army- Tartshiers?

Post by rnsulentic Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:44 pm

Images of Dutch revolt battles and sieges often feature sword and shield armed figures--whether they are officers or picked men or what is usually not clear, although I think they tend to be Spanish, and they tend to be mixed in with firearm carrying infantry in illustrations of storming actions.
They usually look like this guy, from the 1580's:

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Jacob%2Bde%2BGheyn%2B%2528II%2529_Soldaat%2Bmet%2Bzwaard%2Ben%2Bschild%2B%25281587%2B-%2B1595%2529

I have seen the FoGR list and I can't for the life of me figure out where the list writer was getting the idea that there were entire units of those guys, because I only ever see them in pictures as individuals, probably officers. If you google image search on "Pieter Snayers" You can find a bunch of his battle paintings, and occasionally people show close ups like this one:

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Kopia+-PETER+SNAYERS+KIRCHOLM+24

You can see two figures in front of the infantry unit with swords and round shields. I think they're officers.

The Imperial Field Marshal Mountecuccoli was advocating the use of bullet-proof shield carrying guys as the front rank of pikes in his treatise "Sulle Battaglie". But they're part of the unit, not by themselves. That dates somewhere from the late 1630's through the 1660's (Montecuccoli apparently revised it).

Henry Hexham in his "Principles of the Art Militarie" doesn't mention any sort of shield carrying troop at all. That's dated between 1636 and 1640.

Another treatise I have "The Military Garden" likewise only concerns itself with muskets and pikes. That's from 1629.

I'm sure there is lots of stuff in German I've never seen, but I've never seen such a formation depicted in paintings, and nothing I've seen in English mentions them.

I read that the Prince of Orange proposed arming his (pikemen?) with sword and shield "like ancient Romans" in the late 16th century, but the state-general said NO.


Last edited by rnsulentic on Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correct date)
rnsulentic
rnsulentic
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 13
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2015-03-25

Back to top Go down

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Empty Re: German Catholic army- Tartshiers?

Post by rage13fury Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:38 pm

OK, that's brilliant. Thanks for the detailed response very informative.

rage13fury
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 6
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2016-04-09

Back to top Go down

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Empty Re: German Catholic army- Tartshiers?

Post by rnsulentic Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:42 pm

Enjoy!
German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Slingeland_Pieter_Cornelisz_van-ZZZ-Breakfast_of_a_Young_Man
rnsulentic
rnsulentic
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 13
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2015-03-25

Back to top Go down

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Empty Re: German Catholic army- Tartshiers?

Post by Greymouse Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:52 pm

I think he is referring to the Doppelsöldner which had the role of attacking enemy pikemen like the spanish Rodoleros and other sword and Bucklermen.
Doppelsöldner were usually equipped with twohanded swords but some of them carrried onehanded swords and a shield.
If you translate Buckler with the help of Googletranslate the German result is Tartsche which was not a buckler but a bigger shield but beside this the Doppelsöldner who used a shield often hat a bigger shield like the Tartsche rather than a Buckler.

Tartschier seems to be the Author's idea of German for "Tartschen bearer" which is theoretically a correct grammatical construction but unfortunately not an existing word in German.
Like Musketier is someone who bears a musket or Arkebusier is someone carrying an arquebus...

_________________
"So first of all they are very polite and second they don't mean it."
(Christoph Waltz about the Austrians)
Greymouse
Greymouse
Admin
Admin

Posts : 246
Reputation : 8
Join date : 2014-05-16
Age : 55
Location : Austria

http://www.wahnzinn.at

Back to top Go down

German Catholic army- Tartshiers? Empty Re: German Catholic army- Tartshiers?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum