Rules Queries

Some queries from my gaming mates who are trying Baroque out.  I haven't had the opportunity to try the rules out myself....yet

"Does a general being being killed by shooting effect the whole command like being killed in melee."

"When is a unit disordered by a failure to roll high enough during a second movement before the move or at the end of the move."

"In our example, a cavalry unit was shot at during a charge. Once by an ancillary unit firing on opportunity as the cavalry moved, then again as the defenders defensive fired. We judged that the disorder occurs when the unit is shot but this can mean they are disordered when defensive fire occurs - ouch!

Cheers Kev

1 if killed on shooting, no effects on the troops

2 at the end of the move, like Impetus

3 If the Unit charged with one single move action then you cannot react twice. So you can opportunity fire with artillery OR defensive fire with P&M

Oh that's a twist - we had read that you can only react once with any given unit. Not that you can only react once against any given activation.

Presumably if the enemy unit moves as an activation one of my units can attempt to Opportunity react. Then if the unit declares a charge with another activation I can react with defensive fire/counter-charge as that is distinct.

it makes sense and limits ganging up reactions - I think it would be a good clarification in the inevitable errata sheet If it's stated in the rules let me know where because I really, really don't recall reading this.

OK - brand new to the Impetus system and am currently starting to learn Baroque. I may be restating what has already been said but:

I understood that a reacted unit would still get defensive fire (against a different charging unit) - so far so good - and evading does not count as reaction - but I thought a unit remained as reacted until ALL commands per side had completed activation (basically a complete game turn).
I like playing this way but am I understanding this is NOT the correct meaning of reacted?
(Zippee will confirm I'm a little slow on the uptake )

Nope not quite.

A unit may only attempt to react (successful or not) once per entire turn. That's an absolute.

Defensive fire is a reaction, you don't get it if you've reacted to something else earlier.

There are 4 types of reaction:
Opportunity Charge
Opportunity Fire
Counter Charge
Defensive Fire

The bit that surprised me (because I hadn't read it at the top of age 20) is that if more than one unit can react to an enemy activation, only one of them can react.

I'm not 100% clear on whether that means only one of them can attempt to react or if the first one fails the second could try.

That does mean that a unit that moves as an activation and then declares a charge as a second activation can have two reactions declared against it. An enemy unit may attempt an opportunity reaction against the move activation and then a different enemy unit may attempt to opportunity fire against the charge activation - although you're almost certainly better off having the target attempt defensive fire or a counter charge instead (unless it has no reaction left).

Evades although conducted in a similar manner to reactions do not count as a reaction in terms of limiting reaction opportunities.

OK - have now found what you were saying on page 34. Reacted units don't get defensive fire even if against a unit different than the one which caused them to react.

I think we are on the same page otherwise - I was, however, vague on even an attempt to react (even if failed) counts as having reacted but page 20 clears that up - but definitely only one reaction attempt per turn per unit.

Good point about if a unit fails to react can a second unit attempt to react. The spirit of the rules (forcing lots of decisions) seems to suggest that you could try with each possible unit until you succeed (or not). That could put you in the nasty situation of having several of your units reacting to the same enemy activation and have each fail in turn with no reaction left for the next enemy activation.

"3 If the Unit charged with one single move action then you cannot react twice. So you can opportunity fire with artillery OR defensive fire with P&M"


really?  so if I have 3 artillery units in a line charged by a single unit only one gets defensive fire?

Yeah, so, in that case, (3 artillery stands lined up next to each other), who counts as the main unit? Is it the players choice?

And so, could the other two try to react with opportunity fire?

The main unit would be the one with most frontal contact. When we've had several guns I've just made it the player's choice - we still don't allow perfect lining up though, so unless you have three guns together it will always be one or the other.

As you can only react once against a given action it would be typical better for one of the target units (doesn't really matter which one unless they have different VBU) to conduct defensive fire. Because defensive fore is far more likely to happen.

The only instances I can imagine you waving the defensive fire option would be if the target unit is already in combat and this charge is to renew the combat (not possible with guns as they are swept away on contact). Or if the target unit is so shagged that it would be useless in any case (unlikely given the appallingly low VBU of guns). Or if the target is guns and you have better shooters nearby.

If the enemy move to get into position first before charging, then one of your supports can conduct supporting fire but not so much against the charge.

Morale of the tale is don't mass your guns in primitive grand batteries - they will just get swept away costing you VD. Stick 'em adjacent and just behind the front line of P&M units if using them. Better yet spend the points elsewhere because guns seem to be pretty bloody useless to me

Against massed targets like ET & LT guns are a much better (necessary?) buy due to the continual +1 dice vs massed.

Fair comment.

Still given they're range and vulnerability I'm not convinced they're worth the investment

I don't know why med guns are limited to musket range. surely any cannon could fire much longer range than 200 yards

Not sure how effectively though.

What's missing really is a pre-game bombardment phase as part of the deployment/set-up.

As it is, until someone discovers something we're missing, guns are off the menu.

Even against early Pikes or ET I can't really see how they can get sufficient shots in to be worthwhile - maybe once in a while.

Anyway early days yet.

We find that guns have the advantage of making the other side move. If somebody decides they've got the perfect defensive position, your artillery has a chance of convincing him otherwise

Really Jim,
even when your guns have same range as muskets?

short Artillery range is the mystery to me. Any artillery piece from a 1" bore hackbut on up should easily range the entire table.

I BU must equal about 25 yards as that is extreme pistol/mounted carbine range. 2 BU is about right for mounted bows. 2 BU =50 yards is effective musket range & 100 yards or 4 BUs is extreme range for smoothbore black powder weapons which literally can hit the broad side of a barn at that range. Why is artillery so limited?

depends on your artillery. But looking at the table Muskets are -2 at Long with a further -1 for firing at artillery. This probably means they're firing at 1 dice. On the same frontage with artillery A or B you'll have two artillery pieces, both firing at two dice. But the musketeers will cost about 42 points and two units of Artillery B will cost thirty.
And whilst two units of Artillery A cost 40 points they'll still fire with two dice at extreme range where muskets cannot hit.

A couple of additional questions that emerged from our last game. Any guidance would be welcomed!

Opportunity Charge:

Can a unit try to opportunity charge an enemy that is shooting at another friendly unit, or is it only the unit that is being fired at that can react?

Re Rolls:

The rules are clear that, when re-rolling any misses for first fire, any single 5s have to be re-rolled as well. What is the situation when re-rolling 1s and 2s, for example when you have well-trained shooters or a master gunner, can you keep any single 5s then?

Cheers

Max

probably solved, but the Inactive Player (IP) can TRY to react only once per Action performed by the Active Player (AP).

If AP moves a Unit by 1 action, IP can TRY to react only once with a Unit at choice that have not yet reacted that turn.

Artillery in this period is not the artillery of the Napoleonic period. They are pretty cheap, useful but not decisive.

Max Maxwell wrote:A couple of additional questions that emerged from our last game. Any guidance would be welcomed!

Opportunity Charge:

Can a unit try to opportunity charge an enemy that is shooting at another friendly unit, or is it only the unit that is being fired at that can react?

Re Rolls:

The rules are clear that, when re-rolling any misses for first fire, any single 5s have to be re-rolled as well.  What is the situation when re-rolling 1s and 2s, for example when you have  well-trained shooters or a master gunner, can you keep any single 5s then?

Cheers

Max

Hi Max,

1) That's essentially the difference between opportunity and defensive/counter. Any unit can attempt an opportunity reaction whether they are the target or not. Defensive/counter requires that you are the target of a charge.

2) Well as MG re-rolls only allow you to re-roll the 1s and 2s, by definition you don't touch the 5s and any re-rolled dice that come up 5 can be paired with them. Misses on the other hand may include 5s that were rolled, so it has to be stated that you can't keep a 5 and re-roll the other dice hoping for a 5 or 6, you have to re-roll both hoping for 6s or a pair of 5s.

Is that clear?

Or am I talking over your head again

Zippee wrote:

Or am I talking over your head again

"Snorts with laughter"!!

That's really helpful, thanks Zippee. We are really taken with the rules (and steadily out of pocket as a result).

Those answers make sense, even from my "lowly" position, :-)