1300-1100 Libyans

I've come up with a list for the Libyans that challenged the New Kingdom Egyptians. I am especially interested in the Libyan invasions during the reign of Ramses III. I have consulted DBM and Warrior lists as well as taking some cues for ratings from other Impetus lists. In some ways the Libyan list that I propose is not dissimilar to the Beta Nubian list. Comments and suggestions are most welcome.

LIBYANS  1300 - 1100 BC  
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type                        M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 18 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
2-12 T - Archers                6 4 0 B 2 18 Short bow A
OR S – Archers                8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
4-24 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 4 1 B 2 19 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen        8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 4 2 B 3 18 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*)        8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S  (Skirmishers)        8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units. You can upgrade up to 50% of deployed S – Javelinmen to VBU=3, final cost 14 pts per Unit. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.

Just comparing it with the DBMM lists I'd don't think there's a lot wrong

Suggestions would be

Not sure why the Sea people's chariots are any different to the Libyan ones


The Libyan swordsmen seem reasonable (if only because these are obviously the cream of the army) but I'm not sure there's any argument for massed archery. I'd suggest the archers be S rather than T. 12 T archers with a VBU of 4 is a powerful missile force which the Libyans never had.

The Javelinmen I'd complicate a bit

I'd allow them to have some 'Horde' or second quality which would be VBU3/I1 But I'd give them the option to upgrade all to VBU 4

I'm not sure the justification for the skirmishing javelins to be VBU 3 which puts them on a par with Roman Velites
I'd stick with VBU 2

Jim

Hi Jim

Thanks for the input. Really appreciate it.

I can embrace most your suggested changes. The only one that I would argue with is Libyan T troops. With respect to the historical argument there isn’t a lot of information concerning Libyans troops of 1200 BC.  There is no question that Libyans had archery available. How they should be represented is the question. I got the rating for Libyan T archers from several sources.  First, they are listed in the

Minoans and Early Mycenaeans Beta list
0-4 T - Lybian or Nubian Mercenaries 6 4 0 B 1 18 Short bow A

Second, massed archer units are listed in the DBM list for Libyans.  

Only from 2160 BC to 660 BC: Replace javelinmen with archers - Irr Ps (O) @ 2AP or Irr Bw (I) @ 3AP  
0-1/3


Frankly, if we are going to allow Nubian, Trojan and Achaians lists massed archer units of VBU4 then I think there is no reason to deny this to the Libyans either.

The Libyan archers in the DBMM lists at Bow Inferior. This is often used for skirmishing archers who haven't got room to skirmish
(In the same way that Auxilia Inferior is often used for skirmishing javelinmen who haven't got room to skirmish and are forced to fight in closer order than they'd like.)

Comparing them to Nubians, remember that being good archers was the only reason you hired Nubians, they were the best. So Libyans shouldn't be as good as them. Similarly they shouldn't be as good as Egyptians
Yet giving them up to 12 VBU archers means they can have as many archers as New Kingdom Egyptian (Veteran archers and Nubians) and the Libyan archers are as good!

Setting out to make an army, for 350 points, allowing 50 for generals and stuff, I can have an army consisting of 4 units of FL Javelinmen and 12 units of T archers as good as the best in the middle east at the time.
Not sure what it is but it's not a recognisably Libyan army.
To get their archery in proportion you're looking at a couple of units and no better than VBU 3 (which puts them on a par with a lot of other troops from the Middle East at the time who also had no reputation for archery)

Jim

I agree that T troops are not the core of the Libyan army. Perhaps 0-6 VBU 3 C would work best. What do you think?

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B
4-24 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 2 14 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units. You upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen to VBU 4 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.

I think the Skirmishing archers can be B class. If only because most skirmishers seem to be and I don't think Libyans were notoriously poor at it.

Also it struck me that in the footnotes it should perhaps say that Sea People's Warriors are only compulsory if you take the optional Sea People.
It's just that people can get confused between different army list styles and it doesn't hurt to be obvious.
I'd also up the Javelinmen minimum to 8. It might seem a lot but can include the skirmishing javelinmen which is what Libyan armies were always known for.
If you do that then you can probably leave your Archers at 0-6
It means the army is going to look more Libyan. You can have some decent 4/1 infantry, but if you do that
it's going to take half your points.

So how about allowing the player to have the javelinmen as 3/1 C class, but able to upgrade them all to B class and also upgrade all B class to VBU 4.

So you can then have an army where the best warriors have become warriors and the javelinmen and what's left.
It would also be pretty big, indeed convincingly large.

But you can also have a better quality army with better javelinmen but then you don't get to play with so much of the other nice toys

Jim

Thanks Jim. I had made the S Short Bow B C class to encourage players to consider choosing them. Otherwise, it is highly unlikely most players will chose them over S Javelin. But no big deal. I have increased the FL category to 36 to allow players to use large numbers of VBU 3/C units. I have also lowered the VD of VBU 3 FL to 1. Let me know you think about these changes.

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
8-36 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 C 1 9 Javelin
Or FL - Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 1 14 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units. Warriors are only compulsory if the Sea People Allied option is chosen. You can upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen B class to VBU 4/ VD 2 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.

I'd not really taken too much notice of the VD up to this point but I think if you've got chariots as 3, decent infantry as 2 and the rest as 1 you're probably about right

Thanks Jim. Here is the finished list for the Libyans with proper pointing.

APPROVED BY THE FORUM

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
8-36 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin
Or FL - Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 1 17 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units. Warriors are only compulsory if the Sea People Allied option is chosen. You can upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen B class to VBU 4/ VD 2 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.

We ought to get commission from those selling figures because we've turned it into a BIG army

Potentially so Jim. I love the Foundry Libyan figures so once the above becomes a Beta List I am thinking of painting one up. I already have some Sea Peoples so that helps a bit.

Just wondering if there are any suitable plastics out there just to bulk them out

Jim

For the sake of avoiding daft questions it would be sensible if the notes stated that warriors and swordsmen can only form LU with the same. I know they have the same stat line but. . .

Good thinking Zippee

Will do Zippee.

APPROVED BY THE FORUM

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
8-36 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin
Or FL - Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 1 17 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units with the same. Warriors are only compulsory if the Sea People Allied option is chosen. You can upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen B class to VBU 4/ VD 2 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.

Whilst your addition is perfect English and might even be described as elegant for it's lack of verbiage, with Impetus I always try to remember that we have a lot of players for whom English isn't their first language.
(And not just the Americans )

Rather than saying "Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units with the same."
It might be safer to say
"Warriors may only form Large Units with other Warriors, and Swordsmen may only form Large Units with other Swordsmen."
A lot more wordy but probably safer

Jim

Absolutely. Complete clarity of intent saves a lot of anguish later.

TOTALLY APPROVED BY THE FORUM!

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
8-36 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin
Or FL - Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 1 17 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Swordsmen may form Large Units with other Swordsmen. Warriors may form Large Units with other Warriors. Warriors are only compulsory if the Sea People Allied option is chosen. You can upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen B class to VBU 4/ VD 2 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.