Javelins Vs Heavy Javelins

The topic of Javelins vs Heavy Javelins has come up on another topic. I have started this new topic on the subject because it is an important development in Impetus and deserves to be discussed under its own listing.

The idea proposed by Lorenzo is that for VBU5 FL armed with javelin that they instead be treated as Heavy Javelin that functions in the same way as Pilum but with 2 dice on attack and defend.

Personally I like the idea but believe it needs to implemented on a list by list basis. For some armies it makes total sense (ie. Samnites.) In other lists, like the Iberians I believe it is better to keep the Elite Scutarii operating as javelins and not heavy javelin.

I can see both sides of the argument - and don't have a dog in this particular fight as my FL army is Thracian and they upgrade in a different way.

My concerns with the all or nothing approach would be with the elements that contain a general and therefore can get an upgrade to VBU 5 - If you apply the rule across the board these would become rather vulnerable as they would have no choice but to close to contact.

Maybe a solution is to apply it to all VBU 5 FL with javelin that are VD1 or 2? That would have the advantage of not needing to make a list by list errata but at the same time would protect the odd ones such as Generals and GCs beloved Iberians?

Hey Cyrus, I fight Iberians and actually hate the army because it is so deadly. But I have sympathy with how the list was put together and think that changing how the Elite Scutarii function unhinges the list.

How many lists have VBU5 javelin infantry? As I said on another topic I can only think of three. The Samnites and the Irish can have many multiples of VBU5 javelin infantry and that creates a real problem in Impetus play balance. For the Iberians they can at most take 3 and these units come with VD3 which makes them deadly to the command VD.

There are a couple in the main rulebook too - however I don't know off the top of my head how many list have VBU4 Javs that can upgrade to VBU5 if generals - so I think the proposal is valid, and has the advantage of applying to future proxie lists too

Iberians are one of my favourite armies so trying hard not to be too bias .

I rarely take Elite Scutarii ( particularly in comps ) because of the 3VD and if they were changed to Heavy Javelin would never take them now is my guess. So yes what your saying Gaius is probably correct....it would be a loss for them.

Spanish aren't really the problem this is all about the massed FL 5 Jav armies which do need to be re balanced. Case by case sounds the fairest .....if possible.

Gaius Cassius wrote:How many lists have VBU5 javelin infantry? As I said on another topic I can only think of three. The Samnites and the Irish can have many multiples of VBU5 javelin infantry and that creates a real problem in Impetus play balance. For the Iberians they can at most take 3 and these units come with VD3 which makes them deadly to the command VD.

From another thread ...

GamesPoet wrote:There are more beyond Iberian, Irish, and Samnites.

In the original rule book there are Macedonian Peltasts, Persian Takabara, Hannibal Carthaginian Spanish Scutarii, Parthian Daylami. And in Impetus Extra 4, there are Macedonians and Persians if I recall (book not in front of me at the moment) Greek Peltasts, too. I'm not sure about the rest of the the Extras.

I agree with Tarty that the massed VBU5 Javelin armed armies are a problem and think that making them heavy javelins is a good idea.

Good eyes GamePoet. Personally I don't consider the lists in the back of the original rules valid (ie. Impetus has moved a long way since they were created) and if I were running a tournament they would be banded. The Macedonain lists in EI4 have 0-2 Mercenary Peltasts at 5-1. In competition this only one unit so not a game changer.

(lists in the MRB). They are usually still allowed in competitions - at least those that have not been superseded by anything in Extra - such as the Romans.

Lorenzo is looking for a one line fix that does not involve errata or reprinting of the Army Lists, which is why (I suspect) he would prefer not to do this on a list by list basis. That is why I suggested it be applied to any that are not VD3.

so far VBU FL with heavy javelin has not been tested yet in competitions.
Iberian have not them compulsory so just an option still to explore.

2 comps ago I was very surprised to see how 3 FL VBU performed against a pike phalanx (3 units) with frontal rank VBU 6 and D=A, the worst thing they could afford. ANd they had not heavy javelin. Ok they had VD=2. But VD=3 allow you to risk more the FL with VBU 4 and javelin to soften the enemy.

Of course they are melee troops but to be used within an army that relies on "guerrilla" so the right timing is required to give the final blow, like armies with CL and CM, where the latter must be used with care.

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:
Lorenzo is looking for a one line fix that does not involve errata or reprinting of the Army Lists, which is why (I suspect) he would prefer not to do this on a list by list basis. That is why I suggested it be applied to any that are not VD3.

One line fix sounds OK.. but have no idea how many lists this approach would effect. Perhaps less is more could be the best option at the moment ?  change the main culprits  the Irish FLs to Heavy Jav's so the lists can be played in comps and see how it goes ?.... could be enough to fix the whole issue ? Seems there's not enough units in other lists to be of any great concern.

Gaius Cassius wrote:Good eyes GamePoet. Personally I don't consider the lists in the back of the original rules valid (ie. Impetus has moved a long way since they were created) and if I were running a tournament they would be banded. The Macedonain lists in EI4 have 0-2 Mercenary Peltasts at 5-1. In competition this only one unit so not a game changer.

Not valid in the original rules?  Well if a new player only has the rule book, that is all they have, and so for me, valid they are, until it's clear that Impetus 2 is the standard, which reminds me ... but I'll save that topic for a different thread. ; )

My initial Late Achaemenid Persian army came from the list in the rule book, and it worked fine.  And I'm not sure whether or not such a Macedonian Mercenary Peltast unit couldn't be a game changer in the right spot, that's what Impetus does, and I'm not complaining.  Maybe that's a different topic, too.

dadiepiombo wrote:so far VBU FL with heavy javelin has not been tested yet in competitions.
Iberian have not them compulsory so just an option still to explore.

2 comps ago I was very surprised to see how 3 FL VBU performed against a pike phalanx (3 units) with frontal rank VBU 6 and D=A, the worst thing they could afford. ANd they had not heavy javelin. Ok they had VD=2. But VD=3 allow you to risk more the FL with VBU 4 and javelin to soften the enemy.

Of course they are melee troops but to be used within an army that relies on "guerrilla" so the right timing is required to give the final blow, like armies with CL and CM, where the latter must be used with care.

So is your idea to have the VBU 4 javelin units on the various lists be at VD 3 with the idea that a player is less likely to charge into melee, and more likely keep at a distance using javelins for firing?

Tarty wrote:

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:
Lorenzo is looking for a one line fix that does not involve errata or reprinting of the Army Lists, which is why (I suspect) he would prefer not to do this on a list by list basis. That is why I suggested it be applied to any that are not VD3.

One line fix sounds OK.. but have no idea how many lists this approach would effect. Perhaps less is more could be the best option at the moment ?  change the main culprits  the Irish FLs to Heavy Jav's so the lists can be played in comps and see how it goes ?.... could be enough to fix the whole issue ? Seems there's not enough units in other lists to be of any great concern.

Well the current list of VBU 4, and able to go to 5, are as follows ...

Iberian, Irish, Samnite, Macedonian, Persian, Hannibal Carthaginian, Parthian, and probably the Greeks ...

... but that is only taking into consideration Gaius' list of three, the original rule book, and my memory on Impetus Extra 4. Somebody checking the other Impetus Extras could be good, and I'll check Impetus Extra 4 in detail when I have a free moment.

However, having some sound playtesting is a good idea, but that isn't a surprise.

Since Impetus was published Lorenzo has developed more specific protocols for unit types. So for instance Infantry units can never have impetus greater than 4. FL with VBU5 or greater lose javelin (which begs the question of how the Irish got through in EI5.) Most of the lists in the Rules book have been superseded by later lists. The one exception is the Late Republic (ie. Caesar and the Parthians being the exception.) More importantly, the lists have been updated with more care around the VD (upgrades in the first lists didn't include an increase in VD which has become a hallmark of EI and Beta lists.)

With that said other than the Late Persians the original lists have only smattering of VBU5 javelin armed units. Not significant.

Gaius Cassius wrote:Since Impetus was published Lorenzo has developed more specific protocols for unit types. So for instance Infantry units can never have impetus greater than 4. FL with VBU5 or greater lose javelin (which begs the question of how the Irish got through in EI5.) Most of the lists in the Rules book have been superseded by later lists. The one exception is the Late Republic (ie. Caesar and the Parthians being the exception.) More importantly, the lists have been updated with more care around the VD (upgrades in the first lists didn't include an increase in VD which has become a hallmark of EI and Beta lists.)

With that said other than the Late Persians the original lists have only smattering of VBU5 javelin armed units. Not significant.

Where is it shown that FL with VBU 5 or greater lose javelin?

And are there any greater than VBU 5?

As for there only being a "smattering" of possible VBU 5 javelin units on the original lists, not sure that I'm following why that is "not significant". And if the same units are still on various army lists in the Extra Impetous supplements, then it seems worth noting as being in the ranks of those army lists that have the possibility of VBU 5 for javelin units, even if it's only as an upgrade.

I took a few moments this morning and reviewed Impetus Extra 4.

In looking at the "Age of Hoplites" lists, none of the lists have CL VBU 5 with javelin, only VBU 4, which seems the trend across many of the lists in Impetus Extra 4.

With the "Alexander and Successor" era lists, the Alexander Macedonians have Greek Mercenary Peltast with VBU 5 as an upgrade, but none on the Alexander Empire list.  The Late Achaemenid Persian list has no javelin units with an upgrade to VBU 5, which is in contrast to the same list in the original rule book.  Classical Indians and Maurya Empire both have an option for a FL Guard unit with Javelins having VBU 5, but it's 0 to 1 for number of units.

With the "Rome and Mediterranan" lists, the 2nd Punic War Carthaginians have the option in the Iberian allies portion to take 4 to 6 FL with javelins at VBU 5, but their movement is already reduced to 5 as well.  The Iberian & Lusitanian list has the FL javelins (those listed as Scutarii Elite) at VBU 5, yet that's been mentioned previously.

Didn't find any other VBU 5 with javelins, although perhaps I missed something.

Which brings me back to the original rule book having Macedonian, Persian, Hannibal Carthaginian, and Parthian, with Irish and Samnites apparently elsewhere.

Hey GamesPoet, the comment about FL who are promoted to VBU5 losing javelin was made by Lorenzo on the old Forum. The Scutarii on the Carthaginian List is FP VBU5 and the javelin note is a mistake (it should be in the errata.)

The basic rule was that FL moving to VBU5 lose javelin with the few exception noted by you. The real problem came along when the Medieval Irish and the Samnite main troop type is FL VBU5 javelin. The Samnite list has been corrected. The only problem at the moment is the Medieval Irish and I propose that the Bonnachts be changed to Heavy Javelin. But leave the other smattering of VBU5 javelin infantry as is (for the flavour of the game.)

Ok, on the FL/FP, I'll blame it on my aging eyes ... lol. Good to know the FP with Javelins was changed in the errata.

As for the "basic rule" being VBU 5 lose javelin, I'll see if I can find it, yet I'm wondering how this is working out, or if it could with it being on an old website.

Which Impetus Extra have the Irish and Samnite lists?

Irish is EI5 and Samnite is a Beta list. The Samnite has already been amended.

Thank you.

I'm working at tge text of the new amendments and kept Iberian and Lusitanian Elite Scutarii as an exception.