PROPOSED QIN CHINESE and MARIAN ROMAN LISTS

Had a try at doing a Qin (Ch'in) Chinese and Marian (Late Republican) Roman List but I am unable to attach them here. How do I put in an attachment? Any assistance would be appreciated.

Dennis

How does this look?


CH'IN (QIN) CHINESE (255 BC - 206 BC) First Draft:
(VOLUME 10)
CS: Poor (0 pts) or Average (12 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-2 CM - Cavalry (*) 10 5 2 B 3 26 Crossbow B
1 – 2 CGP - Heavy Chariots (*) 8 6 3 B 3 27 Various
OR ALL CGP - Heavy Chariots 8 6 4 C 3 27 Impetuous, Various
0-2 CL- Horse Archers 12 3 1 B 1 25 Comp. Bow B
0-3 CL- Hu Barbarians 12 3 1 B 1 25 Comp. Bow B
4 – 8 FL - Halberdiers & Swordsmen (*) 8 5 3 B 2 22
OR ALL FL - Halberdiers & Swordsmen (*) 8 5 4 C 2 22 Impetuous
OR FL - Close Combat Spearmen 8 5 2 B 2 24 Long Spear
2 – 8 T - Regular Archers 6 4 0 B 2 18 Short Bow A
OR T - Regular Crossbowmen 6 4 0 B 2 21 Crossbow A
2 – 8 FL - Close Combat Foot 8 5 3 B 2 20
+ T - Supporting Crossbowmen 6 4 0 B 1 16 Crossbow A
0-1 FL - Guard Swordsmen 8 5 2 B 2 19
0-3 S - Crossbowmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Crossbow B
0-8 FL - Conscript Foot 8 4 2 C 1 12
OR T - Conscript crossbowmen 6 3 0 C 1 14 Crossbow A
0-5 FP - Impressed POWs or Levies 5 3 0 C 0 4
OR FP - Impressed POWs or Levies 5 3 0 C 0 5 Comp. Bow C
0-6 FP - Hastily Armed Peasants 5 3 1 C 1 7
0-1 ART - Bolt Shooters and Stone Throwers - 1 0 B 1 20 Art C
OR ART - Large Crossbows 3 1 0 B 1 15 Art B
0-6 FOR - Ditch and Ramparts - - - - - 5 Field Fortifications (*)

NOTES AND OPTIONS.
Close Combat Foot must form Large Units with Supporting Crossbowmen. T Supporting Crossbowmen must form the rear rank and can fire without -2 penalty.
Conscript Foot cannot exceed Conscript Crossbowmen.
(*) Field Fortifications have the same frontage as a Unit.




MARIAN'S LATE REPUBLICAN ROMANS (105-25 BC). - first draft
Vol. 6
CS = Good (20 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-2 CM - Italians, Gauls, Spanish 10 4 2 B 2 19
0-2 CL - Numidian, Spanish, Thracian, Illyrian 12 3 1 B 1 21 Javelin
0-1 CL - Syrian Horse Archers 12 3 0 B 1 22 Comp Bow B
5 – 12 FP - Legionaries 5 6 2 B 3 28 Pilum
0-1 FP - Gladiators 5 5 1 C 2 16
0-4 FL - Spanish, Illyrian, Ligurian Auxilliaries 8 4 1 B 2 16 Javelin
0-2 FL - Rhaetian, Thracian Auxilliaries 8 4 2 B 2 20 Javelin
0-6 S - German, Numidian, Greek or Spanish Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
OR S - Baleric, Greek, Numidian Slingers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Sling
OR S - Numidian, Syrian, Gallic or Greek  Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short Bow B
0-1 S - Cretan Archers 8 3 0 B 1 14 Short Bow B
0-1 EL - African Elephants 8 4 4 C 1 17
0-2 ART - Scorpio, Baliistae 3 1 0 B 1 15 Art B
0-6 FOR - Field Fortifications, Ditch and bank for Camp 0 0 0 0 0 5 Permanent Fortifications
Only before 80 BC - Velites 0-1 per 2 Legionaries
0-1 S - Velites 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
Only for the Alliance of Cassius and Brutus in 42 BC
1 – 4 CL - Eastern or Thracian Horse Archers 12 3 0 B 1 22 Comp Bow B
0-2 T - Eastern Foot Archers 6 4 0 B 1 14 Short Bow B
NOTES AND OPTIONS.
You can downgrade one or more Legionary Units to VBU=5, I=1, D=C. New cost is 16pts per unit.
You can upgrade one or more CM Units to VBU=5. New cost is 23pts per unit.
You can upgrade one or more CL Units to VBU=4. New cost is 23pts per unit.
You can upgrade up to 50% of the deployed FL Units to VBU=5. New cost is 20pts per unit.
You can upgrade one or more S Units to VBU=3. New cost is 14pts per unit.
Only before 80 BC - Velites 0-1 per 2 Legionaries
Each Fortification covers the frontage of one Unit



Is this understandable?   Have I put too much detail in this small space?   Looks better as a Spreadsheet.

Cheers,

Dennis

I cut and pasted the Marian Romans, DM and recreated the sheet. It seems pretty fair to me. 

One point. Does this also cover the Triumvirate campaigns? If so, shouldn't there be a lot of Armenians (as in Marc Antony's Parthian wars)?

As I concentrate on competition 350 lists (half MIN/MAX), I adapted it for that as well and worked up a list. It came out as a fairly standard force for the period (2 Fair Gen, 1 CM, 1 CL, 6 FP (2 downgrade), 3FL, 2S, 1 ART, 3 Fort).

That's a conventional structure without other tasty bits but it works within the restrictions.  

Well done.

Thanks for that. I tried to keep it to what I was familiar with. If others have specialist knowledge of campaigns, troop types, weapons, etc, then any input is appreciated. Glad it works for you as well.

Dennis

Looking at the chinese list what's the firepower of Crossbow B 5/2 cavalry like? How does it compare with, for example Sassanids or Similar who have 5 VBU missile armed cavalry?

Also for the Romans, it probably needs a line to say you cannot have Elephants AND horse archers in the same army

Haven't really tested the Crossbow armed Cav but that's what was in the Army so it is historical. Good point about the Elephants and Horse Archers.

Dennis

I just twitch when I see high VBU cavalry with missile weapons

But with the Romans because they have so many troop types from different areas, you don't need to be too exclusive. So obviously there might have been very few numidians used in Eastern Armies, but it doesn't matter because they had suitable alternatives. But I don't think there was an eastern source for elephants that they used, nor a western source for Horse archers

Jim

Those crossbows are a short range weapon only. Less dangerous than the composite bow type troops.

Quite correct Jim. I tend to leave it up to people to know enough about the history of the army they want to use to know what was available, but I suppose I should put in restrictions for the uninitiated.

Also quite correct re the Crossbow jorneto that's why it's reflected in the shooting chart.

Dennis

Dennis, is there any mail or update on this Marian list?

Regarding the roman list and comparing it with the one on the rules I would suggest a increase in the numbers of CM to 0-3 and the legionaries to 5-16.

Surprised me the late republicans not having an official list for so much time.