impetus
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Latest topics
» Warfare battle of Cunaxa
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 23, 2024 11:09 am by kenntak

» Ilipa 206BC Society of Ancients Battle Day
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 4:16 pm by ejc

» Dice&Lead magazine
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 8:36 am by dadiepiombo

» Errata updated
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 18, 2024 8:39 am by dadiepiombo

» Mamluks in Ayyubids Egyptians
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 09, 2024 11:43 am by Robert Gargan

» Army Scale in Creating Scenarios
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 19, 2024 7:51 am by kenntak

» Army Builder Issue
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 09, 2024 9:59 am by jorneto

» Scottish Wars of Independence
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 08, 2024 6:41 pm by archibald the grim

» Hoplites equipped with Hoplon
2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 08, 2024 3:57 pm by kenntak

Warfare battle of Cunaxa

Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 pm by ejc

Sorry for short notice we are putting on the above scenario on Saturday 11th …

Comments: 4

Ilipa 206BC Society of Ancients Battle Day

Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:54 pm by ejc

This year's SOA Battle Day is Ilipa206BC will be about a dozen games all re …

Comments: 1

SELWG 2023 Thapsus 46BC

Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:29 pm by ejc

We will putting on the above game at SELG 2023 on Sunday 15th October. Forum …

Comments: 6

Colours 2023

Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:14 pm by ejc

Sorry for very short notice. We are putting on a game at colours on Saturday …

Comments: 0

Salute 2023

Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:49 pm by jorneto

Any Impetus games in this event?

Comments: 10

Society of Ancients Battle Day

Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:15 pm by ejc

Sorry for the short notice.
Our group is attending this event in Newbury on …

Comments: 3

March 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031

Calendar Calendar


2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

+10
accard
Tartty
dadiepiombo
Dennis Maxentius
Axebreaker
Gaius Cassius
AncientWarrior
grenadiergrandson
Granicus Gaugamela
frazer
14 posters

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:59 pm

T also, in line with foot, though still weak for a melee, can make sense.
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1245
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by AncientWarrior Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:22 pm

Gents,

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.
Still not  completely clear about this . . . There seems to be a slight scent of legalese when one is talking about "CAN form a group" and "ARE a group." Anyway.

The second part of my request for clarification indicated that there was NO space between the Gallic warbands. Turning to Section 7.7.3 (Multiple Melee) it  seems that groups can indeed charge and that melees MAY involve main units as well as supporting units.

With regard to the base-to-base contact rule and covered flank title, the diagram on the left side of page 40 of the rule book shows the Blue Group no longer in an acceptable group formation (reference diagram at top right  of page 14 for examples  of what are groups and what are not) but in melee with enemy cavalry.

Declaring Unit B as the main unit, under this amendment, would it get +2 dice for having both flanks supported or covered?

With regard to splitting up the melee - would Unit B just  fight the enemy unit it is in contact with and Unit C fight the enemy unit it is in contact with? Or, would you have two distinct melees?

AncientWarrior
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 76
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-06-09
Age : 59
Location : USA - Midwest region

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:30 am

It sounds to me AW that you've got it right. I don't see any legalese at all. One could have a mounted unit fulfilling all the conditions of covered flank for an infantry unit but because they cannot form a group there is no bonus. Or in the case of an FL unit fulfilling all of the conditions on the flank of an impetuous warband, the warband would not be considered to have a covered flank. That seems fairly straightforward.

In the example on pg 40 A,B,C start the turn in a Group but the units are able to continue to move when C touches the enemy line. In any event B is considered under the new rule to have both flanks covered and gains a +2 dice for this. Neither B or C is a support unit for the other since B and C only touch one of the enemy units respectively. If C were to melee first and win it looks like it might have enough room to pivot on its front to conform to the enemy formation and advance into contact with B's opponent (it is hard to tell for sure.) If that were the case the melee between B and the enemy B would count C as a support unit but B would lose the covered flank bonus. Hope that helps.
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 1243
Reputation : 43
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Granicus Gaugamela Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:14 am

Axebreaker wrote:39?

Swiss veteran front rank troops are 34points with VBU 6(Impetus 3 p.12) + 42 for both full rear supports clocks in at 76 points per block. Typical game sizes are at least 350pts which would allow the Swiss player to build supported flanks through other Pike blocks.

That's the upgrade yes, the Swiss I was referring to were the basic 5/3/A guys that I use in Italian Wars for 28 points and the second rank costs 21 points for 49 total (WAY too expensive to be paying for a third rank). Equally the front upgrade is always my preferred option depending on points availability.

Small but elite, fair enough.

If we take your example of 76 point blocks in a 350 point game, min 2 commands then at best you're going to have 3 of those as they cost you 228 points. But the catch is their VD - those 3x3 units have a VD of 27, there is no way you can get your percentage split to make that a legit 60%, you would need 18 points in your other command to keep it right on 60:40 and with only 122 points left (110 if you pay for average CS) you can't do it to keep them as a single formation. 500 points yes, but not 350.

And let's say you do take the 3x3 rank large units, only 1 of them will get both flanks supported, the others are single supported by the centre unit. At 500 you could squeeze in a couple of halberdiers perhaps for a total of 29VD in the one command (228 points of pike +36 Halb = 264) which means you need to find 20 VD in your second command with 236 points less whatever you pay for both commanders (min 20 for 2) and CS (min 12 for Swiss) so 204 points.

It can be done eg you take the other 3VD units of pike (23+17+17=57 each, 9VD) x2 = 114pts, 18VD and then you add some CP or something and you have your VD split OK but you are a very pike dependant army (now necesarily unusual for Swiss and whilst I am usually pike heavy I take only a 2nd rank not a third) but it would leave you with an incredibly narrow frontage of about 5 pike blocks and maybe 4 other units. Which is roughly normal for 350 point games but this is in 500 point games.

Not to say it wouldn't work, but your enemy will almost certainly have a significant overlap and flank attacks become a major concern.

Axebreaker wrote:
The only point I was making is that in melee they will be tough hombres.


On this we agree. Tough and capable but need some careful handling lest your enemy get advantageous numbers against you.

Axebreaker wrote:
I seem to get the feeling that your thinking I'm saying the Veteran Swiss will be too powerful or too dominant and somehow unfair which not all what I'm saying, but rather just that with all the possible bonuses they could receive can be nasty indeed in melee.

Fair enough, agreed again

Small but tough

Which I have to admit fits my preferences to a T.

Granicus Gaugamela
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 444
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Granicus Gaugamela Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:17 am

FL Halberdiers as "flank companies" now make a very sensible tactic as well.

Granicus Gaugamela
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 444
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:49 am

On this we agree. Tough and capable but need some careful handling lest your enemy get advantageous numbers against you.

Yep, would need to use discipline A to it's max advantage and get your block across the table in a hurry and where you want it quickly crushing that point before the more numerous opponent or fire arm heavy army uses their advantages against you.


Fair enough, agreed again

Small but tough

Which I have to admit fits my preferences to a T.

It seems like I often gravitate towards small elite armies as well so I'm used to the situation, however when I do play cheaper armies it's fun sometimes not to worry too much about casualties and the occasional bad dice roll here and there that are the total bane of elite armies. Smile

FL Halberdiers as "flank companies" now make a very sensible tactic as well.

I was thinking about that.....

Christopher
Axebreaker
Axebreaker
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 108
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by grenadiergrandson Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:57 pm

Reading the above I'm not sure if an answer has come up for the following:

A & B are next to each other, A is fighting X and B is able to support A. Does B give +1 flank support bonus to A as well as its Combat Dice halved rounded up?

S supporting question answered, thanks very much Smile Smile

grenadiergrandson
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 68
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-22

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:51 pm

Grenadier I would put it this way to keep things in my mind clear. A is the main unit and gains a +1 die for a covered flank (provided by B) and B also is a support unit for purposes of melee and adds in 1/2 the dice in support.
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 1243
Reputation : 43
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:57 pm

Here is one of my Swiss lists that I used. I didn't take any S because they can't keep up with the pike blocks. Very powerful, quick and flexible. But also quite brittle (the high Swiss VD works against them) and subject to flanking by their opponent (which has happened several times.) Wise use of firepower can slow them down and high VBU cavalry can jam them up allowing for flanking actions. So like every other army in Impetus it wins some and losses some. The rules on covered flanks probably works more against the Swiss than in their favour since there isn't a lot of flank support for the pike blocks (and with A class one sometimes keeps the blocks apart to allow for the best use of oblique movement.) The Halberdiers, when they catch up to the pike can be good at covering flanks but I usually would deploy them a bit wider to attempt to hold up the enemy swinging around.

Medieval Swiss B 350 Point List

Average Army Command 12

Command +2 20
FP Pike A (6 VBU)*        34 3
FP Pike A 21 3
FP Pike A 21 3
FP Pike A (6 VBU)        34 3
FP Pike A 21 3
FP Pike A 21 3
FL Halberdiers         25 2
                  197       20  

Command +2 20
FP Pike B*(6 VBU) 29 3
FP Pike B 17 3
FP Pike B 17 3
CP Impetuous 29 3
FL Halberdiers         25 2
      137       14      
                                      346               34
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 1243
Reputation : 43
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:44 pm

Sounds good and very similiar to what I had in mind, but I wonder if changing the CP to another unit of Halberdiers and with the left over points picking up some destiny re-rolls to ensure your pike blocks get where you want them to fast....

Christopher
Axebreaker
Axebreaker
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 108
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:26 pm

We don't use of destiny re-rolls in my gaming group. We had our fill of rerolls when we played Napoleon's Battles.

Yes I do wonder about using another unit of Halberdiers instead of CP. It does sound tempting. On the other hand, the CP is there simply to stop someone hitting the flank of the pike block. With the higher VBU it may give me another turn for the pike to get through. Hard to say.
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 1243
Reputation : 43
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Dennis Maxentius Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:43 am

The way I understand it, a Supporting Unit can be a Supporting Flank in a melee if it fulfils the requirements of being in line, etc except that now it gets an extra dice as well as the normal bonuses for a Supporting Unit. Is that correct?

Dennis
Dennis Maxentius
Dennis Maxentius
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 224
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Australia

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:43 am

A supporting Unit can be or not a flanking unit (better term?) and a flanking unit can be or not a supporting unit. A supporting unit musy be in contact with enemy, a flanking unit must form a line (though not perfect) with the unit to which covers the flank.

The bonus for covered flank is anyway given only to main unit, so a supportinng unit doesn't count that bonus before halving its dice.

I'm preparing some diagrams
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1245
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:26 pm

With the higher VBU it may give me another turn for the pike to get through. Hard to say.

I'd still go with as much Halbadiers as possible as they can both block and provided flank bonus support to the pikes unless of course you just want to paint up some CP or have a little variety.

Christopher
Axebreaker
Axebreaker
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 108
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Dennis Maxentius Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:12 pm

Thanks Lorenzo, diagrams are always helpful.

Dennis
Dennis Maxentius
Dennis Maxentius
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 224
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Australia

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Tartty Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:42 pm

We will be taking these new amendments for a lap around the block this week Wink ....looking forward to it.
Tartty
Tartty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 629
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY Australia

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:32 pm

I think you will find Tarty that the amendments improve the game quite a bit. Just have to remember to add in the additional dice for flanks and better quality.
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 1243
Reputation : 43
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Dennis Maxentius Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:45 am

I was hoping to have a run with the mew amendments tonight but no one is answering my requests for a game. Although I suppose I am a rather intimidating person and my reputation is holding up. Cool Laughing
Dennis Maxentius
Dennis Maxentius
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 224
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Australia

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by accard Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:44 am

Regarding the rule for a + 1 modifier in combat for the unit with better discipline.

How about this applied only if the unit with lower discipline is no longer fresh?

So those keen undisciplined warband and knights don't get penalised in their initial rush when all is well, but in longer combats superior discipline comes into play.

accard
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 78
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-09-09

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:58 pm

a warband, being on Large Units, can stay fresher than a mentos Very Happy
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1245
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Cyrus The Adequate Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:18 pm

Rising from hibernation, I have a question about flank supports that "can" form a group. Does this mean troop types that are allowed to form a group, or troops that fulfill the requirements to be considered as a group?
Cyrus The Adequate
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 566
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:18 pm

The former. So for instance CM could not provide flank support to FP even if they fulfilled the flanking provisions. This makes S very useful in that they can provide support to both infantry and mounted units.
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 1243
Reputation : 43
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:30 pm

troops that fulfill the requirements to be considered as a group (even if they are no longer a Group)
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1245
Reputation : 49
Join date : 2014-05-15

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Cyrus The Adequate Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:44 pm

I'm still not clear - do the supports need to be in any formation - ie is there a requirement for corner to corner contact, or is it enough that they are a suitable type to form a group - ie both are (for example) impetuous foot and they share a side edge contact?
Cyrus The Adequate
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 566
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Cyrus The Adequate Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:57 pm

and - can a unit in edge contact with a BUA occupied by a friendly unit count as supported?
Cyrus The Adequate
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 566
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

Back to top Go down

2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS - Page 2 Empty Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum