2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

T also, in line with foot, though still weak for a melee, can make sense.

Gents,

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.
Still not  completely clear about this . . . There seems to be a slight scent of legalese when one is talking about "CAN form a group" and "ARE a group." Anyway.

The second part of my request for clarification indicated that there was NO space between the Gallic warbands. Turning to Section 7.7.3 (Multiple Melee) it  seems that groups can indeed charge and that melees MAY involve main units as well as supporting units.

With regard to the base-to-base contact rule and covered flank title, the diagram on the left side of page 40 of the rule book shows the Blue Group no longer in an acceptable group formation (reference diagram at top right  of page 14 for examples  of what are groups and what are not) but in melee with enemy cavalry.

Declaring Unit B as the main unit, under this amendment, would it get +2 dice for having both flanks supported or covered?

With regard to splitting up the melee - would Unit B just  fight the enemy unit it is in contact with and Unit C fight the enemy unit it is in contact with? Or, would you have two distinct melees?

It sounds to me AW that you've got it right. I don't see any legalese at all. One could have a mounted unit fulfilling all the conditions of covered flank for an infantry unit but because they cannot form a group there is no bonus. Or in the case of an FL unit fulfilling all of the conditions on the flank of an impetuous warband, the warband would not be considered to have a covered flank. That seems fairly straightforward.

In the example on pg 40 A,B,C start the turn in a Group but the units are able to continue to move when C touches the enemy line. In any event B is considered under the new rule to have both flanks covered and gains a +2 dice for this. Neither B or C is a support unit for the other since B and C only touch one of the enemy units respectively. If C were to melee first and win it looks like it might have enough room to pivot on its front to conform to the enemy formation and advance into contact with B's opponent (it is hard to tell for sure.) If that were the case the melee between B and the enemy B would count C as a support unit but B would lose the covered flank bonus. Hope that helps.

Axebreaker wrote:39?

Swiss veteran front rank troops are 34points with VBU 6(Impetus 3 p.12) + 42 for both full rear supports clocks in at 76 points per block. Typical game sizes are at least 350pts which would allow the Swiss player to build supported flanks through other Pike blocks.

That's the upgrade yes, the Swiss I was referring to were the basic 5/3/A guys that I use in Italian Wars for 28 points and the second rank costs 21 points for 49 total (WAY too expensive to be paying for a third rank). Equally the front upgrade is always my preferred option depending on points availability.

Small but elite, fair enough.

If we take your example of 76 point blocks in a 350 point game, min 2 commands then at best you're going to have 3 of those as they cost you 228 points. But the catch is their VD - those 3x3 units have a VD of 27, there is no way you can get your percentage split to make that a legit 60%, you would need 18 points in your other command to keep it right on 60:40 and with only 122 points left (110 if you pay for average CS) you can't do it to keep them as a single formation. 500 points yes, but not 350.

And let's say you do take the 3x3 rank large units, only 1 of them will get both flanks supported, the others are single supported by the centre unit. At 500 you could squeeze in a couple of halberdiers perhaps for a total of 29VD in the one command (228 points of pike +36 Halb = 264) which means you need to find 20 VD in your second command with 236 points less whatever you pay for both commanders (min 20 for 2) and CS (min 12 for Swiss) so 204 points.

It can be done eg you take the other 3VD units of pike (23+17+17=57 each, 9VD) x2 = 114pts, 18VD and then you add some CP or something and you have your VD split OK but you are a very pike dependant army (now necesarily unusual for Swiss and whilst I am usually pike heavy I take only a 2nd rank not a third) but it would leave you with an incredibly narrow frontage of about 5 pike blocks and maybe 4 other units. Which is roughly normal for 350 point games but this is in 500 point games.

Not to say it wouldn't work, but your enemy will almost certainly have a significant overlap and flank attacks become a major concern.

Axebreaker wrote:
The only point I was making is that in melee they will be tough hombres.

On this we agree. Tough and capable but need some careful handling lest your enemy get advantageous numbers against you.

Axebreaker wrote:
I seem to get the feeling that your thinking I'm saying the Veteran Swiss will be too powerful or too dominant and somehow unfair which not all what I'm saying, but rather just that with all the possible bonuses they could receive can be nasty indeed in melee.

Fair enough, agreed again

Small but tough

Which I have to admit fits my preferences to a T.

FL Halberdiers as "flank companies" now make a very sensible tactic as well.

On this we agree. Tough and capable but need some careful handling lest your enemy get advantageous numbers against you.

Yep, would need to use discipline A to it's max advantage and get your block across the table in a hurry and where you want it quickly crushing that point before the more numerous opponent or fire arm heavy army uses their advantages against you.

Fair enough, agreed again

Small but tough

Which I have to admit fits my preferences to a T.

It seems like I often gravitate towards small elite armies as well so I'm used to the situation, however when I do play cheaper armies it's fun sometimes not to worry too much about casualties and the occasional bad dice roll here and there that are the total bane of elite armies.

FL Halberdiers as "flank companies" now make a very sensible tactic as well.

I was thinking about that.....

Christopher

Reading the above I'm not sure if an answer has come up for the following:

A & B are next to each other, A is fighting X and B is able to support A. Does B give +1 flank support bonus to A as well as its Combat Dice halved rounded up?

S supporting question answered, thanks very much

Grenadier I would put it this way to keep things in my mind clear. A is the main unit and gains a +1 die for a covered flank (provided by B) and B also is a support unit for purposes of melee and adds in 1/2 the dice in support.

Here is one of my Swiss lists that I used. I didn't take any S because they can't keep up with the pike blocks. Very powerful, quick and flexible. But also quite brittle (the high Swiss VD works against them) and subject to flanking by their opponent (which has happened several times.) Wise use of firepower can slow them down and high VBU cavalry can jam them up allowing for flanking actions. So like every other army in Impetus it wins some and losses some. The rules on covered flanks probably works more against the Swiss than in their favour since there isn't a lot of flank support for the pike blocks (and with A class one sometimes keeps the blocks apart to allow for the best use of oblique movement.) The Halberdiers, when they catch up to the pike can be good at covering flanks but I usually would deploy them a bit wider to attempt to hold up the enemy swinging around.

Medieval Swiss B 350 Point List

Average Army Command 12

Command +2 20
FP Pike A (6 VBU)*        34 3
FP Pike A 21 3
FP Pike A 21 3
FP Pike A (6 VBU)        34 3
FP Pike A 21 3
FP Pike A 21 3
FL Halberdiers         25 2
                  197       20  

Command +2 20
FP Pike B*(6 VBU) 29 3
FP Pike B 17 3
FP Pike B 17 3
CP Impetuous 29 3
FL Halberdiers         25 2
      137       14      
                                      346               34

Sounds good and very similiar to what I had in mind, but I wonder if changing the CP to another unit of Halberdiers and with the left over points picking up some destiny re-rolls to ensure your pike blocks get where you want them to fast....

Christopher

We don't use of destiny re-rolls in my gaming group. We had our fill of rerolls when we played Napoleon's Battles.

Yes I do wonder about using another unit of Halberdiers instead of CP. It does sound tempting. On the other hand, the CP is there simply to stop someone hitting the flank of the pike block. With the higher VBU it may give me another turn for the pike to get through. Hard to say.

The way I understand it, a Supporting Unit can be a Supporting Flank in a melee if it fulfils the requirements of being in line, etc except that now it gets an extra dice as well as the normal bonuses for a Supporting Unit. Is that correct?

Dennis

A supporting Unit can be or not a flanking unit (better term?) and a flanking unit can be or not a supporting unit. A supporting unit musy be in contact with enemy, a flanking unit must form a line (though not perfect) with the unit to which covers the flank.

The bonus for covered flank is anyway given only to main unit, so a supportinng unit doesn't count that bonus before halving its dice.

I'm preparing some diagrams

With the higher VBU it may give me another turn for the pike to get through. Hard to say.

I'd still go with as much Halbadiers as possible as they can both block and provided flank bonus support to the pikes unless of course you just want to paint up some CP or have a little variety.

Christopher

Thanks Lorenzo, diagrams are always helpful.

Dennis

We will be taking these new amendments for a lap around the block this week ....looking forward to it.

I think you will find Tarty that the amendments improve the game quite a bit. Just have to remember to add in the additional dice for flanks and better quality.

I was hoping to have a run with the mew amendments tonight but no one is answering my requests for a game. Although I suppose I am a rather intimidating person and my reputation is holding up.

Regarding the rule for a + 1 modifier in combat for the unit with better discipline.

How about this applied only if the unit with lower discipline is no longer fresh?

So those keen undisciplined warband and knights don't get penalised in their initial rush when all is well, but in longer combats superior discipline comes into play.

a warband, being on Large Units, can stay fresher than a mentos

Rising from hibernation, I have a question about flank supports that "can" form a group. Does this mean troop types that are allowed to form a group, or troops that fulfill the requirements to be considered as a group?

The former. So for instance CM could not provide flank support to FP even if they fulfilled the flanking provisions. This makes S very useful in that they can provide support to both infantry and mounted units.

troops that fulfill the requirements to be considered as a group (even if they are no longer a Group)

I'm still not clear - do the supports need to be in any formation - ie is there a requirement for corner to corner contact, or is it enough that they are a suitable type to form a group - ie both are (for example) impetuous foot and they share a side edge contact?

and - can a unit in edge contact with a BUA occupied by a friendly unit count as supported?