Arab Conquest army list?

Just wondering, is there an army list for the Arab Conquest period armies, say 635 AD for the armies that fought against the Byzantines under Khalid ibn Al Walid? I have found a pre-Islamic Arab army, but not an early Islamic army, only ones from the various Arab Empires.

Not as yet - it would (presumably) fall into Vol XII Armies of Islam [Period IV Dark Age]. The earliest Arab list currently is Sicilian Arab 878-1091 and then various Crusade era lists starting with 10th century Fatimids.

There is a beta Arab Conquest 622-660 however which should get you started. . .

yes there is the beta. One of the list I want to check in the next days after some reading.

So where do I find the Beta list?

What is the status of the Beta lists? Could they be used for competitions?

They can be used, unless organizers forbid them, something that I have seen so far only in UK and something I don't like too much (better to update some betas if considered too strong).

Anyway probably the list will be updated shortly (few days)

Thanks. I am taking Greek hoplites to Cancon but it is handy for future reference, as I also have some Arabs and Burmese lying around from my DBM days.

Here is one I worked on

ARAB CONQUEST (622-660 AD)
CS: Poor (0 pts)



Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0 - 1 CM- Citizen cavalry (*) 10 5 2 C 3 18
0-4 CL- Nomads 12 3 0 B 1 18 Javelin
0-1 CL - Nomads 12 3 1 B 1 21 Camel
8 - 24 FP - Warriors(*) 5 5 2 C 2 14
or FP - Warriors(*) 5 5 2 B 2 19
2 - 6 S - Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
OR T - Archers 6 3 0 B 2 16 Short Bow A
0-3 S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 S - Slingers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Sling
After 632AD
3 - 8 CM- Jund (*) 10 5 2 C 3 18
0-1 FL - Dailami 8 4 1 B 2 19 Javelin
0-1 CM - Asawira 10 6 1 B 3 35 Composite Bow B
0 - 12 FP - Recent converts (*) 5 4 2 C 1 10
0 - 1 S - Elephant slayers 8 3 3 B 1 16 Javelin


NOTES AND OPTIONS.
Warriors cannot form Large Units.
Warriors can be provided with mounts at an additional cost of 1 pts per Unit.
Mounts allow these troops to move 10U (per phase) in their first activation.
You can upgrade one ore more Units of Javelinmen to VBU=3. Final cost is 14pts per Unit.
Elephant slayers can be used only if the enemy could use elephants.

The army of the Arab Conquest evolved rapidly; by 632AD the Muslims had unified Arabia. Their numbers were increased by Dailami and Asawira who had been part of the Sassanid garrison in Yemen and who had converted to Islam. There were considerable numbers of Apostates who had converted to Islam but had then fought against the Muslim forces. These had returned to the fold and their numbers were increased by an influx of recent converts as the Arab armies were successful.
Arab armies were strong in infantry but the infantry was not a wild horde who formed up in deep formations and swept the enemy out of the way.

good one, I wondered if cavalry can be increased in numbers and in quality. The faced the Sassanid outmanouvering them heavily.
Also many raids proved to be effective. So maybe CL could be raised to VBU 4 and maybe some CM can be equipped with shooting weapons? (any reference on this?)

All the references are for the exact opposite in the early period. They talk of men riding to battle and then dismounting and fighting on foot.
The cavalry were 'fencing lancers' and were notoriously resistant to taking up horse archery. There was some tradition of it in the northern 'arabs', in places like Hatra and Palmyra but not in the south where the conquest came from.

The raids weren't really of light cavalry but of mounted infantry riding camels and some horses.

Once you get the settlements in Syria and the formation of the Bund then there were an awful lot of rather mediocre cavalry but the initial battles fought against the Sassanids were mainly infantry armies who had 'operational' speed because they had very little baggage and suchlike and could cope with desert and dry conditions so even on foot they could out manoeuvre Sassanids. Also they had a morale advantage.
To get the proper balance in games between Sassanids and Arabs you'll probably have to downgrade the Sassanid command structure and make most of the cavalry C class with maximum VBU of 5 except for a couple of guard units with VBU of 6. The Sassanid army had had a major kicking from the Byzantines (who had a major kicking from the Sassanids) and had also been involved in civil disturbances. Also the troops who fought the Arabs were to an extent reliant of Arab allies and may indeed have contained a lot of men who would soon regard themselves as Arabs.
So the Arabs don't have to be brilliant to defeat the good Sassanid army. They merely have to have self confidence to defeat a Sassanid army that was on the edge of collapse.

I agree with Jim re cavalry. The Arab Conquest list varies depending on the time period covered. In the early battles under Khalid ibn Al Walid it relied on fanatic infantry, not cavalry. Also armour was still pretty rare until they became richer from loot after winning. Same with the horses.

Rather than upgrading the CL, I wonder about the Skirmishers and Archers? These were all pretty effective in battle, and rated as dangerous by the Byzantines. Should they have an option for VBU 3 if S or 4 if T?

One more question Jim - command? The Arab Conquest army was noted as being much more unified than before the Islamic period. Al Walid was surely a great military commander. Is there a case for giving them an option for Average command?

Yes, they ought to have the possibility of having a better command than their Byzantine and Sassanid opponents.

Jim

Sorry I only just read the notes. Agree on most and you have covered my thoughts on skirmisher upgrades except archers. However why no large units? The battle of Yarmuk (according to Nicholle's Osprey guide) saw the Arabs using defensive infantry tactics against the Byzantine cavalry, with blocks of infantry formed in divisions. This again reinforces the question of whether Average command is justified. I think at least in your second period after 632AD it is.

I suppose in summary I wonder if there needs to be more differentiation between the first and second time periods? You get fanaticism mainly in the first period, more organisation in the second?

Jim

(Sorry for the series of posts) As a suggestion, if you had the potential for average command and large infantry units in the second period, perhaps this could be countered by only allowing half the infantry to be able to be upgraded to B class after 632? No doubt, as the army grew, some less reliable troops came in.

The reason I wanted to avoid deep units was that generally they didn't use them, they were swordsmen who fought in comparatively thin lines rather than men who punched through the enemy in deep blocks.

If we allow deep units because it might possibly have happened then all we achieve is that every Arab conquest army will have nothing but

Reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yarmouk#The_Rashidun_army  and more specifically Kaegi, whilst the Muslim infantry coped with Byzantine attacks, they never seem to have done much of the deep attacks of their own. Certainly an Arab wargames army which was allowed to attack on a narrow front with deep infantry wouldn't seem to have a lot in common with the original

So here is my suggestion of a modified form of Jim's list:

ARAB CONQUEST (622-660 AD)
CS: Poor (0 pts)



Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0 - 1 CM- Citizen cavalry (*) 10 5 2 C 3 18
0-4 CL- Nomads 12 3 0 B 1 18 Javelin
0-1 CL - Nomads 12 3 1 B 1 21 Camel
8 - 24 FP - Warriors(*) 5 5 3 C 2 15
Or FP - Warriors(*) 5 5 2 B 2 19
2 - 6 S - Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
OR T - Archers 6 3 0 B 2 16 Short Bow A
0-3 S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 S - Slingers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Sling
After 632AD
3 - 8 CM- Jund (*) 10 5 2 C 3 18
0-1 FL - Dailami 8 4 1 B 2 19 Javelin
0-1 CM - Asawira 10 6 1 B 3 35 Composite Bow B
Upgrade 1/2 to all Warriors to FP (*) 5 5 2 B 2 19(14)
0 - 12 FP - Recent converts (*) 5 4 2 C 1 10
0 - 1 S - Elephant slayers 8 3 3 B 1 16 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS.
Warriors can form Large Units if B class.
Warriors can be provided with Camel mounts at an additional cost of 1 pts per Unit.
Mounts allow these troops to move 10U (per phase) in their first activation.
You can upgrade one ore more Units of Javelinmen to VBU=3. Final cost is 14pts per Unit.
Elephant slayers can be used only if the enemy could use elephants. If none, replace with VBU 3 unit of Javelinemen.
Command may be upgraded to Average (12 points) after 632AD.

For competition purposes I suggest the Elephant Slayers should be either permitted in any list, or given an option to sub out for a unit of Javelinemen if there are no Elephants.

Jim

OK thanks for the explanation regarding deep infantry. Is there any way to reflect their defensive ability then?

The problem is that allowing deep units doesn't reflect the army's defensive ability, it just gives it a solid core of attacking infantry. If they try to defend with deep infantry (certainly in 15mm in a 400 plus points game on a sensible table, they'll end up being outflanked and rolled up from both sides.

Reading round more it might make sense to improve the cavalry before 632 to 6/2 and make them B

The problem with altering the infantry after 632 is that historically the infantry was downgraded in importance any and the  cavalry was the important arm. But it was more numerous and potentially rather worse. So perhaps allowing the upgrading of a quarter of the units to 6/2 and make that quarter B class (which is a subtle encouragement to take plenty  )

I am wondering whether the presence of camels (behind the thin line of infantry) might mean that the Arab infantry count as camel mounted and cavalry lose their impetus against them which will mean that they have less to fear against enemy cavalry and aren't just obliterated by the first charge against someone like Normans or Goths in 28mm at 300 points.
It would also encourage people to have them as mounted infantry and mean they could advance faster.