Javelin strength in Impetus

Hey folks.

Is anyone else of the opinion that javelins are one of the best shooting weapons in Impetus? I have always thought them under-rated in other games, the weak cousin of bows and slings.  I didn't give them much thought in Impetus, but in the periods we play they are often a requirement in the lists.

My regular opponent and I are always surprised   to see that in almost every situation, javelins seem to get more shooting dice than most other common shooting weapons.
They seem to have the same factors as other S type shooting weapons and point blank (cool) and also the same dice as most bows at short range (though slightly less than sling). They really show their value when they move (frequently in our games), getting no -1 penalty.

I realize we are talking 1 die difference, but with the low VBU S types this can mean quite a bit: 1 die vs 2 is double your chances, and 0 vs 1 is no chance at all. I think this is significant. I creates some weird results sometimes, in my opinion.

Consider this: Short Bow B skirmishers vs Javelin skirmishers, both VBU=2.

At each other =  At long range, no one shoots. At short range, no one shoots (both -1 inf/short range, -1 at S). If javelin move into point blank they get 4, if bow move into point blank they get 3. Bow must not move to get equal dice.
At another inf target = At long range, no one shoots. At short range, if javelin move in they get 1, if bow move in they get 0. At point blank if javelin move in they get
4 dice, Bow get 3 dice. Bow must not move to get full dice -- consider the rarity of this! Many troop types will charge you from more than 5U away.
At another Mtd (not CL) target = At long range, bow get 1 if they don't move.
At short range the javelins get 2 die if they move or not, the bow get 1 if they move, 2 if they don't. At point blank, we have the same story again. The javelin are at 5 dice regardless, the bow get 4 if they move and otherwise 5.
At another CL mtd target = At long range, no one shoots. At close range, javelin get 1 if they move, bow get 0 if they move and1 if they don't. At point blank range Javelin get 5 and bow get 4 if they move, 5 if they don't.

If I have added my modifiers correctly, in every scenario, at every range, the javelins get equal or better dice with the benefit of moving as well. There is one exception -- bow vs non-CL mounted at long range. I guess if you expect to shoot at horsemen from very far away all game, bow is the way to go -- but otherwise, always, always pick javelin S troops if you have the choice. They generally will get more dice, more often, with more flexibility in how they are used. The javelin men can approach and shoot if you are aggressive, or fall-back and shoot if you are refusing. The bow have to remain in place to be counted equal at any range.

Sling is a different matter -- as they get 1 more bonus die at short range, this would introduce parity if the sling move, or a slight advantage over javelin in some cases if they don't.

What would I change? Well I'd ensure that bow had more dice at longer ranges. The ability to move and shoot without the -1 is a great idea and works really well for the javelin men, but I am disappointed to see that means they often out-shoot bow at the short range bracket.

Remember that historically skirmishing javelinmen were the ones you sent up to get rid of skirmishing archers. They were shielded, and had enough missile fire to drive them off even if they couldn't catch them in melee.
So I think that the balance is about right historically

Jim

Well I might think "sent up" being the key term. As is, they can stay in place or fall back as well and still hold an advantage.
Additionally, my comments included attacks against other troop types, showing javelin always being a more effective and flexible choice (with one unusual exception).
Were javelin men the best troops to skirmish with in every situation?
Could skirmishing archers never make an advantage out of: more ammunition, higher rate of fire and a longer effective range?

On average getting stuck with a javelin would be worse than an arrow IMHO, but how we reflect the ammunition supply would become cumbersome (again IMHO).

Not sure why javelins are so strong overall, they just are. It's a value judgement by the authors and we work our tactics around it. And if they scoot ahead, well I like that, it lets the light cavalry in me some cheap VD points...

Given that the pilum is just a heavy javelin, I also sometimes become confused about general javelin abilities.

The sociology of weapons would indicate the javelin and the sling are so common because they are simple to manufacture and use. A stick is pretty easy to acquire. I do wonder how effective they were on horseback, particularly compared to bows, but "rules are rules" and that's fine. It's just something to take into account.

I agree that I wouldn't like to be stuck by a javelin. I had the privilege of seeing such a thing once at a school athletics meeting and it wasn't pleasant. Fortunately, the thrower didn't have a ready supply.

I will echo that sentiment -- javelins are serious weapons. There is a lot more mass behind a javelin in comparison with an arrow. I have played around with some replica javelins, and their penetrative power seems to be greater than arrows. The "plunging fire" from above is very intimidating.  It's easy to dash around and toss them as you run. You can carry the extras in your shield hand, grabbing another on the move.
I think most war games underrate them, honestly.

But ... most people can't throw them very far, accuracy drops dramatically over range, and you can probably only carry about 5-6 comfortably. If you are using the leather "thong" for added distance/accuracy, you lose a lot of time winding it around and setting it up and you need to be still to do it. It certainly helps, I have tried it. It definitely improved my (poor  ) range, but an archer or slinger would not have this issue.

"Rules are rules" doesn't really mean a lot to me. If I've followed events correctly, those rules are under revision at this time. Sometimes pointing things out like this can help.
I am considering adjusting the shooting table for home games, and reducing both factors by 1 for javelins at Short Range. I mentioned in another post my distaste for Thracian peltasts out-shooting horse archers at range, and this might help there, too.

My point about the rules, Pezhetairoi, was that that is the way this edition has rendered them so you adapt and compromise because the set offers other advantages. Change them for home games if you're comfortable with that but it's is not a healthy option in open competitions.

I agree completely that you need the discussion to continue and it does, particularly in recent posts over composite bows, warbands, troop combinations etc. That is the one the chief purposes of a forum like this one.

We are privileged that Lorenzo makes himself so accessible for these discussions. He's not one of those Olympian designers watching from far above us.

I'm not so sure about the greater penetrative power, the whole mv^2 thing etc, but the heaviness of the projectile once it is lodged is an increase 5.56 vs 7.62mm kind of argument. The pilum being a supposedly heavier and once only usage javelin being that argument taken to extreme.

If javelins are going to be as good as they are there should be some penalty post discharge or something. You can hardly claim that carrying a big bundle of "sticks" (to steal from Starkers) isn't encumbering, and after you've thrown one you have to stop and get another and prepare etc etc etc which is a lot messier than bows, arrows, quivers.

The swarming javelin armed light infantry is too viable a force in Impetus, straight line, dead ahead, discharge and keep doing so.

Starkadder makes a good point about being hit by a javelin, too. A minor wound for example -- an arrow in the arm or leg would be a miserable experience, but a javelin in through the arm or leg would probably take anyone out of the fight.
Boar hunters used javelins, since sticking a boar with an arrow just made it angry.
Maybe "stopping power" is a more accurate term than penetrative power.

If javelins are going to be as good as they are there should be some penalty post discharge or something. You can hardly claim that carrying a big bundle of "sticks" (to steal from Starkers) isn't encumbering, and after you've thrown one you have to stop and get another and prepare etc etc etc which is a lot messier than bows, arrows, quivers.

Doesn't quite match with my experience. Even an nonathletic novice like me could carry 3x 50" javelins in my shield hand (with a peltast shield) and throw another. It was easy to jog and throw at the same time, and then simply reach over and grab another javelin. We practiced with a bale of hay as a target, running towards it, releasing all of our javelins on the way. It was pretty easy. I even hit the bale a few times.   After we had thrown them all (about 10-15 seconds) we'd turn away at the end and run back to the start. Our best thrower could hit the bale at a run from about 40m away.
The caveat is the thong -- if the throwers are using a thong, you have to stop and wind it around each javelin before you throw. It's a little fussy. It really improves range and accuracy by imparting a spin on the javelin as it unwinds -- just like rifling.

So this why I think that the drawback to javelins in Impetus should be the range. As is, they shoot just as well or better than other weapons at short range without a move penalty. If the throwers are using thongs, they lose rate of fire and wouldn't be able to move and shoot, so I think a reduction of short range dice, and perhaps maybe a loss of the move and fire bonus at short range too.

Javelinmen are enough strong in the game to be choosen as a valid option.
They have a -1 VS foot at short range, that is the common range used by Skirmishers.
A -2 would mean that they cannot shoot against foot at all.
Unless we are talking about VBU=3 javelinmen. But VBU=3 javelins are basically an upgrade. No one is forced to upgrade his troops if he feels they are overpowered. Unless (there is always an unless) you are playing at a tournament. In that case perfect balance is impossible: everybody tries to get the best from his lists. This is the taste of tournaments.

In general VBU3 S and VBU4 CL, both with javelin, are Caetrati, Velites and Numidians, they were very effective troops.

Pezhetairoi wrote:Even an nonathletic novice like me could carry 3x 50" javelins in my shield hand (with a peltast shield) and throw another. It was easy to jog and throw at the same time, and then simply reach over and grab another javelin. We practiced with a bale of hay as a target, running towards it, releasing all of our javelins on the way. It was pretty easy. I even hit the bale a few times.   After we had thrown them all (about 10-15 seconds) we'd turn away at the end and run back to the start. Our best thrower could hit the bale at a run from about 40m away.

Was the bale shooting back and trying to claim ground?

That would tend to make it a touch more difficult...

dadiepiombo wrote:They have a -1 VS foot at short range, that is the common range used by Skirmishers.
A -2 would mean that they cannot shoot against foot at all.

I'd be okay with that.  After all, that's what VBU2 skirmishers with Short Bow B gets if they move into short range and shoot at foot ... -2!

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:That would tend to make it a touch more difficult...

To survive, for sure! To actually throw ... it didn't feel like it. Training and nerves would play a part, definitely, and you might be a little more cautious on the approach reducing the overall rate of fire. Is that what you are getting at?
I don't see how that would make it harder to reach for another .... That part is easy.
Seriously, try it sometime. It is a lot of fun. I could toss javelins all day. Well, at least until my arm gets sore.  

Bear with me, his has nothing to with Impetus but is an interesting story about throwing spears.

My brother taught in the Northern Territory (Australia) for almost twenty years to indigenous people in Nhulunbuy and Yuendumu. My parents and I often stayed up there for weeks and months at a time.

In the Seventies. the Northern Territory indigenous used to have a thing called the Black Olympics and everyone was invited. There were all sorts of traditional activities - corroboree, boomerang, woomera and spear throwing.

The aim in spear throwing was to hit a foam rubber silhouette of a kangaroo. It was placed about 40 m metres out and there were some excellent throwers.

Here's the thing. The older you were, the closer they bought the foam rubber 'roo. Everyone was rated. Then one old bloke, a much respected very elderly and almost blind man stepped up to the mark. They bought the 'roo up to about a spear length. He hit it dead heart centre.

They gave him the gold medal. And meant it.

This was not about patronising the elderly. They viewed his life as a whole and not just for that day and that throw. In his youth, he had been one of the best throwers ever known. It was about respect.

As I said, not about Impetus, but I'll never forget it. That said, I wouldn't want him next to me in a skirmish line.   

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:

Pezhetairoi wrote:Even an nonathletic novice like me could carry 3x 50" javelins in my shield hand (with a peltast shield) and throw another. It was easy to jog and throw at the same time, and then simply reach over and grab another javelin. We practiced with a bale of hay as a target, running towards it, releasing all of our javelins on the way. It was pretty easy. I even hit the bale a few times.   After we had thrown them all (about 10-15 seconds) we'd turn away at the end and run back to the start. Our best thrower could hit the bale at a run from about 40m away.

Was the bale shooting back and trying to claim ground?

That would tend to make it a touch more difficult...

This holds true of any missile weapon, rifle fire tends to deteriorate when someone is hosing you position with a machine gun   

Jim

Jim Webster wrote:
This holds true of any missile weapon, rifle fire tends to deteriorate when someone is hosing you position with a machine gun   

Jim

Exactly. Anything coming back the other way tends to be a bit of a distraction...

I'd be okay with that. Very Happy After all, that's what VBU2 skirmishers with Short Bow B gets if they move into short range and shoot at foot ... -2!

On the other hands a bow B class S can throw, if stationary 1 die (still considering a VBU=2), while javelinman no.

On the other hands a bow B class S can throw, if stationary 1 die (still considering a VBU=2), while javelinman no.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. The bow armed guys, if they get the chance to stay still and fire, can out shoot the javelin men at 5-15U with a (1 die) barrage at enemy foot.
The javelin men need to move into point black range, but then fire at full effect.
Consider the number of times that the archers get this opportunity... I suspect few, but let me know if this not correct.

Here is some better wording for what I'm thinking:
1) adjust the javelin @ short range to -2/-1
2) S, FL, and CL can move and fire without the -1 penalty at point blank range (only).

So this would also mean ...
VBU 4 FL who move and shoot get only 1 die at foot at short range, but 2 if they stay still to fire. A reduction over all. I think they get too many dice as is at this range. I've heard them referred to as "machine guns" and my games would confirm. Note they retain full dice at point blank, even if they move to reach it. Since they move 8U, this is not difficult. Tactically, I think it works for them. They wanted to get closer and "skirmish" historically, rather than sit on a hill and bombard the enemy from a distance, which is all too easy currently. Additionally the VBU 5 versions become a little less scary.

VBU 3 CL get 0 die from short range at foot if they move, but if they stay still (cantabrian circle?) they get 1. They get a boost at point blank -- losing no dice when they close in. This will encourage them to close in. This helps a little against horse archers, permitting aggression, and represents the effect of the added velocity vector of the horse to the velocity of the throw against other more stationary targets.

I can go on and on saying it sounds right, but of course I'd have to test it to find out.   

dadiepiombo wrote:Javelinmen are enough strong in the game to be choosen as a valid option.
They have a -1 VS foot at short range, that is the common range used by Skirmishers.
A -2 would mean that they cannot shoot against foot at all.
Unless we are talking about VBU=3 javelinmen. But VBU=3 javelins are basically an upgrade. No one is forced to upgrade his troops if he feels they are overpowered. Unless (there is always an unless) you are playing at a tournament. In that case perfect balance is impossible: everybody tries to get the best from his lists. This is the taste of tournaments.

In general VBU3 S and VBU4 CL, both with javelin, are Caetrati, Velites and Numidians, they were very effective troops.

Greek Peltasts and Persian Takabara also have VBU 4, and can get an upgrade to VBU 5. The reason I bring this up is because we have Greek, Macedonian, and Persian players in this area, and there seems to be a concern over the power of the light javelins (those that roll well) to destroy major units.

The only Javelin armed troops I think have issues are the VBU5 types - there has been some discussion and the general consensus is they should really lose the jav if you upgrade to VBU5 from 4

Other than that - the factors and range seem ok to me within game parameters

For the moment, it could be good to keep the rules as is for tourneys (at least until Impetus 2 arrives), but for multi-player games perhaps it could be good to establish the army lists without the upgrades, and then this falls in line with the rules and the army lists as written.

GP there has also been an idea from Lorenzo that VBU 5 Javelins could operate under the Pilum guidelines getting 2 dice in attack and defence. I quiet like this myself but nothing has been cemented in.

So the VBU would come down to 2 for CL, just like the VBU 2 for S?

The CL issue is slightly different - they don't get the "free" move and shoot. The main issue with Jav armed CL is that it is essential to increase the VD to 2 when upgrading from vbu 3 to vbu 4 to prevent them becoming disposable

The "pilum" option mentioned by Tarty is to place some restrictions on upgraded FL with javelins - instead of having VBU 5 Javelins they would have a choice of VBU 4 Jav or upgrade to VBU 5 "Heavy Javelin" which would not have any missile factors but would roll 2 dice before contact similar to a pilum. I'd prefer a term like "heavy throwing weapons" or similar. There was some flirtation a while ago with "various weapons" but predictably this was subject to abuse

I don't mind seeing the Samnite and Irish lists modified by the changes for the VBU5 FL armed javelin troops but I'd sure like to see the Spanish Elite Scutarii keep their VBU 5 javelin. The list isn't over powering and it gives the Spanish a unique flavour.

We have alternative modification in consideration -- reducing the ultimate range of Javelin to 10u. That way they still get some dice at short range, but bow and sling get 5u more range (but must stay stationary to get the same dice). The javelin then becomes a slightly higher risk weapon, since most Cav have charge reach equal or greater.
If we go with this approach we may want to allow CL to move and fire without the -1 penalty, making that attribute universal.