Zoulous - Zulus

It may seem strange to play zulus on an ancient and medieval ruleset. But it is logical as before the contact with the europeans (and even after) the zulus didn't use firearms. In fact, zulus, especially at Shaka's time, are very similars to the romans, without armor.
So, here you can find a proposal for a zulu army list, in french, sorry.
Can you tell me if I an right for the values ?

Zoulous (1816 à 1850)

D'après la liste de Ph Bondurand pour la règle « Charges Antiques et Médiévales »

Avoir des Zoulous pour une règle Antique et Médiévale suscite souvent une polémique entre les tenants de la chronologie ("Le Moyen âge s'arrête à telle date") et ceux de la technologie ("Une armée est antique-médiévale si elle utilise une technologie compatible avec cette période"). Après réflexion, il s'est passé moins de temps entre Jeanne d'Arc et Shaka qu'entre Charlemagne et la bergère de Domrémy...

Shaka kaSenzagakhona créa de toutes pièces la nation et l'armée zouloue. Il en fit le brutal instrument de son pouvoir, inaugurant la période que les bantous d'Afrique du Sud nomment "Mfecane" en Nguni ou "diFaqane" en Sotho, c'est à dire "La dévastation". L'armée zoulou était toujours en 4 corps : le centre « Front », les ailes « Cornes » et la réserve « Ventre » ou « reins ».

Non seulement les guerriers vivaient ensemble en casernes et s'exerçaient régulièrement, mais il est attesté qu'à l'époque de Shaka, au moins, chacun connaissait sa place dans l'ordre de bataille, d'où la très haute discipline et la forte structure de commandement. Le classement de l'iSqla, la très courte lance zouloue n'est pas chose simple. Nous avons choisi de privilégier son utilisation (pour poignarder, prise à mi longueur, dans un mouvement latéral légèrement de bas en haut), plutôt que sa forme. La classer en lance courte aurait donné des résultats aberrants selon l'adversaire.

Shaka avait interdit les javelots traditionnels des Nguni. A sa mort, ses frères laissèrent faire sa réintroduction, notamment en réponse à la nouvelle menace que constituaient les armes à feu et les chevaux. Vers 1850, des fusils d'exécrable qualité commencèrent à filtrer sur le marché zoulou, d'où la possibilté de quelques hacquebuttes mais c'est encore trop d'honneur pour l'inefficacité chronique des tirs zoulous jusqu'en 1879 et leur défaite finale d'Ulundi. Fusils rouillés, hausses limées, poudre déplorable et tireurs visant trop haut en pensant ainsi allonger le tir, ils n'avaient servi absolument à rien lors de la victoire de janvier 1879 sur les Anglais à Isandhlwana.

Zoulous Shaka (1816 à 1828)

Min	Max	Type	Description	M	VBU	I	D	VD	Pts	Note
3	4		InDuna (Général)
2	12	FL	Guerriers (mariés) du Front	8	5	3	A	3*	27 (22)	GU possible
0	8	FL	Guerriers (Mariés) des Reins	8	5	3	A	3*	27 (22)	GU possible
4	30	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes	8	4	4	A	2	24 (19)	GU possible
	OU	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes avec général	8	4	4	A	3*	24 (19)	GU possible
0	4	E	Eclaireurs	8	2	0	B	1	12	Variées
Structure de commandement bonne

Les FL peuvent être considérés comme de la cavalerie pour les questions de découverte à la volonté du joueur. Une Armée Zouloue n'est pas réellement historique si elle se laisse surprendre.

Zoulous post-Shaka ( 1829 à 1850)

Min	Max	Type	Description	M	VBU	I	D	VD	Pts	Note
2	4		InDuna (Général)
2	12	FL	Guerriers (mariés) du Front	8	5	2	A	3*	26 (21)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
0	8	FL	Guerriers (vétérans Mariés) des Reins	8	5	3	A	3*	27 (22)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
4	30	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes	8	4	3	B	2	18 (13)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
	OU	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes avec général	8	4	3	B	3*	18 (13)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
	OU	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes	8	4	3	A	3	23 (18)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
	OU	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes avec général	8	4	3	A	3*	23 (18)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
0	4	E	Eclaireurs	8	2	0	B	1	12	Javelots
0	1	E	Eclaireurs avec fusils de traite	8	2	0	B	1	12	Haquebutes
Structure de commandement moyenne ou bonne

Les FL peuvent être considérés comme de la cavalerie pour les questions de découverte à la volonté du joueur. Une Armée Zouloue n'est pas réellement historique si elle se laisse surprendre.

So many Discipline A units ? Makes them expensive also maybe an option to take more quantity over quality ?

That is exactly the point with a zulu army. Each Impy was made by guys of the same year and they stayed at the same place their live on.
It is even more stable and disciplined than the Legion. Each man had its place life long !
After Shaka (2nd list) the discipline was slightly less, ense the B possibility !
Off course it is expensive. But I want to be sure of my account how much expensive they are for 2 or 3 points more or less a unit may be a unit different at the end.

I have too thought about building a Zulu army for Impetus. I agree that the army fits into the style of fighting that Impetus covers.

Most people who make their own lists tend to overrate the units (perhaps because they love the army.) I think you've done this for the Zulus. "A" rated units are rare in Impetus. I can't agree that they are equivalent to the veterans of Trajan. Your veterans being 5/5 B would be quite powerful in Impetus. Are you using an already available list from another set of rules for the Zulus as your template?

On the other hand I would be inclined to allow some of the front ranks of the unmarried warriors to upgrade to VBU5. Perhaps if the class was reduced to C class discipline and the front ranks were promoted you would get more hitting power with a bit less control.

I can't see the full chart so I don't know what some or your notes say.

Tell me if I am wrong : A, B or C are on the discipline of the unit. For a warrior who is at the same place or nearly all his life long, how can the unit be more disciplined ? They live together all the time and train every day. All this is described by those englishmen that met them after 1812. At least they are equals to the theban Sacred Band, who are rated A.
After Shaka, we can have some B as the disciplined declined a little, especialy among the newly conquered tribes. But on Shaka's times, a fault in disipline equaled to death.
What can be more discussed is the VBU and IMPETUS. What we know is that they were as well trained and as ferocious that such wariors as gauls or romans, but they had no armor. May be the VBU can be reduced somehow. Here, I put VBU 4 and IMP 4, similar to galatians, with a shift to 5/3 for veterans.
It is not possible to have C zulus except for allies and youngsters, but as they are played as S, they are B as usual.
Most Notes say "GU possible" (Large Unit possible). The other read "Variées" (various weapons), "Javelot" (javelin) and "Haquebute" (Handguns).
I have used old lists, especialy those lists done in the 80ies for the rule "Charges Antiques et Médiévales" by Philippe Bondurand, with the help of british zulu specialists.

But whould somebody be so kind as to check the list for the values of the different units. I am not sure of the calculation.
Thank you.

Roman legions lived and trained together over decades and yet they generally have a B rating. There are only 3 Sacred Band A class units in the Theban list. But that begs the question. An A rating represent a high level of unit performance, unit organization, NCO command and control, officer leadership. I don't see it in the Zulus.

I would have to agree with Gaius. I don't doubt the strong minded purpose of the average Zulu warrior this has been well recorded in the face of the Martini-Henry that I don't deny. Not sure how they would stack up toe to toe agains't a seasoned Roman legion however ?? ....mind you that would be a sight
I see them as a fast moving lightly armoured war band army. Perhaps like Spanish or Celtiberians ? Think using a list similar would work quiet well as a starting point.

I pick your point of view but I do not agree yet.
As long as I understood the rule, A, B or C rating are just used to see if the unit get disordered by movement and how fast they return to order after it or after a fight. And that is probably the main caracteristic of Shaka's zulus.
That is why I told here over that maybe I gave too high a VBU. And then, opposed to a Legion with 5 VBU or more, they may have harder time then against bantus. The great legion of early Imperial times are probably more efficient and they have armour. But they are not as disciplined.
Just to tell more, Shaka army is mainly known by english military explorers by 1812. Against the Martini-Henry, we have successors of successors and the army is less efficient, with subject tribes and mainly less discipline. According to 1812 description, any fail in discipline was punished by death.
So, we can have mainly B and even C after 1830, as we have javelins. But before, the case is different.
But so, I think, according to your ideas, best to take 1 in VBU off.

Tarty wrote:I see them as a fast moving lightly armoured war band army. Perhaps like Spanish or Celtiberians ? Think using a list similar would work quiet well as a starting point.  

To describe a Zulu Impi on Shaka's times as a warband is as describing a phalanx as a hord
So, we have to find, if possible, an equivalent to a guard phalanx (for organisation) without any armour neither throwing weapon (except for teen-agers), with a gladius as its only weapon...
Certainly not Iberians, as they are much too individuals in their fight, and impetuous too.
Thanks for your help.

Having gotten a couple of lists approved for the Beta lists I appreciate your fascination and advocacy for the Zulus. We tend to promote armies we like. I did. Having conversations with those who don't see it our way can be frustrating. I think your historical take on the Zulus is  a bit too optimistic. To give the Zulus B class is a pretty hefty lift to be honest. I'd be more inclined to go with C class (as per Tarty) but I could accept that some of the harden units might be B class. A class seems like a pretty far stretch from what I know.

I appreciate very much your interest in my zulu proposal. I noticed that you say that you think my view of the zulus is optimistic. OK. But the sources we have states such a thing on the discipline point of view.
Am I right in saying that A status deals only with discipline, not battle efficiency, dealt by VBU and Imp?
And so, we must consider that use. For example, it is normal for such an "impi" to do 2nd and 3rd move not being disordered. Otherwise, we would invent some new caracteristic, which is much worse.
I am a very old player, having writen a wildly used french rule in the 80's/90's, with army lists, and we made the French Ancien and Medieval cup from 1985 till 2003. So I am very much used to army lists and my point is how to represent the best the caracteristics of an army according to the mecanics of the rule and the sources available.
I discovered IMPETUS recently and I recognise easily you have a more great use of it. So, can you give me a better way to represent an over disciplined army (under pain of immediate death, I remind you) with a good but not over efficient way of battle, with emphasis only on close fight? I cannot.

The strength of the back rank makes a real difference in Impetus so making the VBU of the unit front and back of elite units 5 would make them powerful. If the elite units are B class that would make them even more effective. Especially if they move as a group with an attached general. Also is the Command Radius of the army is very important. Do the Zulus have a Poor or Average Army Command.

For the value of the Army Commandt, there is a difficulty : The army disployed always the same way : 1 corp in the center ("head"), 2 on sides ("horns") and 1 on reserve ("belly"), but they moved easily with a wide range of signals. Hence the "good" Command possibility.
But things went worse after Shaka. So, I then prefer "average".
Do not consider africans as poor wariors. All were not and mostly the others prefered the sentence "those who fly today will fight again tomorrow"...
Finaly, I will give here after my army list modified. I think it fair.
Are the values correct ?

Zoulous Shaka (1816 à 1828)

Min	Max	Type	Description	M	VBU	I	D	VD	Pts	Note
3	4		InDuna (Général)
2	12	FL	Guerriers (mariés) du Front	8	4	3	A	3	23 (18)	GU possible
0	8	FL	Guerriers (Mariés) des Reins	8	4	3	A	3	23 (18)	GU possible
4	30	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes	8	3	4	A	2	22 (17)	GU possible
	OU	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes avec général	8	3	4	A	3*	22 (17)	GU possible
0	4	E	Eclaireurs	8	2	0	B	1	12	Variées
0	1	WF (*)	Troupeau de bovins guidé	8	2	5	C	0	7
Structure de commandement moyenne ou bonne

(*) Char à faux (par équivalence)
Les FL peuvent être considérés comme de la cavalerie pour les questions de découverte à la volonté du joueur. Une Armée Zouloue n'est pas réellement historique si elle se laisse surprendre.

Zoulous post-Shaka ( 1829 à 1850)

Min	Max	Type	Description	M	VBU	I	D	VD	Pts	Note
2	4		InDuna (Général)
2	12	FL	Guerriers (mariés) du Front	8	4	2	A	3	22 (17)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
0	8	FL	Guerriers (vétérans Mariés) des Reins	8	4	3	A	3	23 (18)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
4	30	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes	8	4	3	B	2	18 (13)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
	OU	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes avec général	8	4	3	B	3*	18 (13)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
	OU	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes	8	3	3	B	2	16 (11)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
	OU	FL	Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes avec général	8	3	3	B	3*	16 (11)	GU possible
possible			Ajouter le javelot						+3	points
0	4	E	Eclaireurs	8	2	0	B	1	12	Javelots
0	1	E	Eclaireurs avec fusils de traite	8	2	0	B	1	12	Haquebutes
0	1	WF	Troupeau de bovins guidé	8	2	5	C	0	7	Char à faux
Structure de commandement moyenne

Les FL peuvent être considérés comme de la cavalerie pour les questions de découverte à la volonté du joueur. Une Armée Zouloue n'est pas réellement historique si elle se laisse surprendre.

My hunch is Army Command is Poor. In Impetus 2 that isn't as big a problem as Impetus because Groups can stay together. That means the Zulus would be going forward in larger Groups which seems right to me. The subtle options that come with better command seem less plausible to me (as you suggest in their consistent deployment.)

For the ratings I think you've gone the wrong way. VBU 4 infantry, even in large units, gets destroyed fast in Impetus. The Zulus of your list will die quickly. VBU 3 infantry is very rare and very poor. I think the Zulus were tougher than that. Here is my suggestions for you list.

2-12 FL Guerriers (mariés) du Front
8 5 3 B 3 22(17) GU possible

4-30 FL Guerriers (Célibataires) des Cornes
8 5 4 C 2 18(14) GU possible

HERELLE wrote:
So, can you give me a better way to represent an over disciplined army (under pain of immediate death, I remind you) with a good but not over efficient way of battle, with emphasis only on close fight? I cannot.

Taking the appropriate cards to suit a Zulu army...for example

Strategic Cards
-Forward Deployment
-Scouting
-Flank March
-Ambush

Tactical Cards
-Iron Discipline
-Decisive Initiative
-Charge by opportunity

These would all play to the strengths of an 'energetic' FL based army.

Sorry, but, for the moment, I have only IMPETUS 1, so I do not use the cards. The list will be reviewed (with others, many others) with the use of IMPETUS 2.
And I maintain that for IMPETUS 1, especially for Shaka's time, C is impossible but for teenagers and B do not give the flavour of the army.
You are true to remind me that the fighting test is done under the VBU. So, I will come back to VBU 4 for all, and possibility of 5 for some.
For the International Games Festival of Cannes, I will use that list. After the test, I will tell you the result.
I suppose the zulus will stay outside the IMPETUS range and be played thus only localy.
Thank you all.

Belle contribution et belle discussion.