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Basic Impetus 2 Comp, January 2018?

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Charges/ counter chares

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Charges/ counter chares Empty Charges/ counter chares

Post by ejc on Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:27 am

Say you have 2 opposing groups of cavalry with attahed generals moving towards each other would seem that if one group did 2 moves and ended In zOC then with B class cavalry and reliable general would pass discpline test on anything but a one could then charge and as within 1H no opportunity of enemy cavalry to countercharge if I'm reading 5.7.4 properly. Seems very unrealistic bearing in mind total distance travelled? Is this right.

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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:18 pm

I have noticed this too. With the +2 DT bonus for generals Reliable or better that means that groups can move with much speed across the table before their opponent can react to it. With the demise of units being placed on opportunity in Impetus 1 there is no counter option except to do the same. This was one of my concerns with embracing Baroque style reactions.
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Post by ejc on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:38 pm

I can also see a gamey player wanting to charge with a general within 1H moves short of contact to deny opportunity for counter charge. Am tempted to siggest to our group that if the attacking unit or group on activation was more than 1H away defenders can react to counter charge and if successful move 1H which may push back attakers slightly if they in ZoC.

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Post by ejc on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:41 pm

Sorry first sentence should have said within one mpve not 1H moves a short move instead of contact just to avoid enemy trying to counter charge

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Post by ejc on Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:15 am

Re your comment moves into contact lot quicker particularly with general making more multiple moves likely. I was happy with that except where you moved half way across table and entered enemy ZoC then charged enemy were denied opportunity to counter charge.
Personally i like the changes althougj quicker more opportunity to recact and takes awY some of the certaintt such as charging knowing disorrdered troops can't counter charge or moving close with missile troops knowing disordered troops just have to take it or charging across table into bow without being fired at. I know you can start on opportunity in impetus or try to go on opportunity but the use of reactions covets far more situations. Regards eric

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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:38 pm

Eric, are you a fairly new player? New players tend to overemphasize the importance of impetus versus disorder. I agree with you that the risk of disorder for B troops with attached general (Reliable or better) has been moved down to 1 in 6. Still the risk of disorder is often a bigger problem than extra melee dice. Especially if the unit attacking or defending is a high VBU CP. In most cases it will survive the initial attack with only disorder. Risking disorder by double moving is still a significant risk in Impetus 2 even if it is only now 1 in 6.
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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by Aurelius on Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:43 pm

There is one possibility, have TC8 'Charge by opportunity' in your hand.

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Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed May 01, 2019 3:08 am

To use the card wouldn't you still need a ZOC violation? In ejc's scenario what would that be? Advancing directly forward wouldn't seem to be it.
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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by Aurelius on Wed May 01, 2019 7:54 am

My understanding is that a ZOC violation is not needed with the card. 5.7.3 reads '...ZoC has been violated or, also as a Group, if a specific Tactical Card is used.' So the 'or' suggests Opportunity Charge is available to anything in range.

Could be useful.

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Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed May 01, 2019 12:18 pm

Not sure if you are correct about that Aurelius. It still seems to me that a violation of the ZoC has to occur before the card can be used. In any event, my group has moved away from cards after play testing them.
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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by ScottR on Wed May 01, 2019 9:58 pm

Hey everyone,
I have read and reread this question and I have to agree with Aurelius.  5.7.3, If you take out the comma and the phrase “, also as a group,” the sentence would read, “This reaction can only be used if a ZoC has been violated or if a specific tactical card is used.” Under the rule 4.1.3" the Inactive player can if suitable conditions occur, react during the activation of the opponent, for any of his actions: movement, charge, or shooting".  It seems that an inactive player holding the card could at the moment the active player stops his present move (1H away) could use the card and charge.  This would stop the active player from charging or counter charging. This may sound a little like a rules lawyer but in reading: Charges 5.7, it says that:” Before making this movement, a player must declare the charge to allow for the possible reaction of enemy units.”  So if the reaction comes first( it does in shooting and evading, as well as counter charges). Does this allow the inactive player (with the Card) after the charge declaration to opportunity charge first? Thus pinning the active player in place, unable to charge. I would be interested in Lorenzo’s intent on this rule.

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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by ejc on Thu May 02, 2019 2:21 pm

my original query wasn't really to try to get impetus or avoid opponent getting it that's in the lap of the Gods or should I say dice it was the principal of the thing yes if high VBU first result likely to be disorder if lower VBU obviously more brittle. When two groups of say cavalry with attached general star to approach and one of them goes for it with multiple moves ends up in ZoC so know opportunity to counter charge because of chance or player design to me makes know sense player can't try to react if he so desires. With impetus 2 with its system of reactions is good for most situations but this seems to be an anomaly to this system.
we don't use the tactical cards much but our group interprets the tactical opportunity charge can be used outside ZoC. Regards Eric

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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu May 02, 2019 4:36 pm

Scott and Aurelius you might be correct on this. In the Action and Reactions table on pg. 22 it says across from Move "None (unless owning a specific Card or the ZOC has been violated)". It seems that this must be TC8. As I mentioned above, we are not using the cards so it is moot to me.

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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by ScottR on Thu May 02, 2019 7:37 pm

Hey EJC,
We did go off your original query, didn’t we? I suppose that is what we gamers do.
However in regards to you starting post, I agree with Gaius’s post of Apr29, as the situation was pretty much the same as in Impetus 1. I would point out that Impetus 1 gave all commanders a +1 to the discipline test, whether you were Alexander or the most cowardly commander alive. A pass on 1 or 2, still good odds. Maybe the bonuses should start at -1.
We are not using the cards either but unfortunately I don’t see where a charge outside a ZoC violation is allowed without the card.
That being said, I also feel that with the changes in opportunity, counter charges should be allowed and the distance split between the movements. By the rules when a unit that starts 1 1/2 H away declares a charge, the counter charger moves 1H forward and contact is there. The charger only move 1/2 H.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
I have enjoyed this conversation and have gotten much from it.

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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by ejc on Sat May 04, 2019 1:25 pm

As you say in my example the rules don't allow rhe opportunity to counter charge even though ypouve watched them advance half way across the table and by chance or design ended up in ZoC before final move to conntact. The game design in impetus 2 encourages inter reation by use of reations the only alternative is to have house rule. Regards eric

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Charges/ counter chares Empty Re: Charges/ counter chares

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed May 08, 2019 2:32 pm

here are 2 way an opportunity charge can be done
1) The ZoC is violated
2) You sue the specific Tactical Card.

If you use the card, then the Opportunity charge can be performed by a Group.

Opportunity Charge is a different thing from Countercharge.
If you are the target of a charge you can only try to countercharge. The Opportunity charge is to charge someone that simply is moving or shooting and not charging you.

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