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» Punic war mini campaign
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 21, 2024 2:03 pm by kenntak

» King David questions
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 21, 2024 6:56 am by kreoseus

» First game of King David.
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 20, 2024 9:06 pm by kreoseus

» ECW based for Baroqe
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 20, 2024 12:01 am by ejc

» Tournament rules and scenarios for Basic Impetus
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 18, 2024 3:07 pm by dadiepiombo

» Routing at the Same Time
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 18, 2024 3:03 pm by dadiepiombo

» Warfare 2024 at Farnborough Nov 16th 17th
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2024 8:12 pm by ejc

» My 15mm armies so far
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2024 8:04 pm by Tartty

» House Rules - Impetus 2
Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2024 10:32 pm by ejc

Warfare 2024 at Farnborough Nov 16th 17th

Thu Nov 14, 2024 11:05 pm by ejc

Sorry for late notice anyone from forum welcome to join in on either day will …

Comments: 4

Salute 2024 Battle of Pharslus 48BC

Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:44 am by ejc

Forum members welcome to take part in battle of Pharslus Saturday 13th April …

Comments: 0

Ilipa 206BC Society of Ancients Battle Day

Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:54 pm by ejc

This year's SOA Battle Day is Ilipa206BC will be about a dozen games all re …

Comments: 10

Warfare battle of Cunaxa

Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 pm by ejc

Sorry for short notice we are putting on the above scenario on Saturday 11th …

Comments: 4

SELWG 2023 Thapsus 46BC

Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:29 pm by ejc

We will putting on the above game at SELG 2023 on Sunday 15th October. Forum …

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Colours 2023

Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:14 pm by ejc

Sorry for very short notice. We are putting on a game at colours on Saturday …

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Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes?

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Jim Webster
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Gaius Cassius
GamesPoet
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AncientWarrior
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Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes? - Page 2 Empty Re: Foot have impetus vs units with long spears and or pikes?

Post by GamesPoet Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:43 am

Sounds like at least one topic there, if not two, for another thread.

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Post by Cyrus The Adequate Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:28 am

As has been said, there are a lot of possible unforeseen implications with rules changes that can upset the balance but once you have paid your ££££ they're yours to use as you see fit.

I would be interested in what the result of this change was. I like Impetus a lot but I am happy to accept there are still some issues with the game. Play-test and report is in order, but with one personal caveat - try to keep any amendments specific to troop types rather than specific nationalities - ie "Long spears should do x rather than Spartans should do x" - the last thing we need is changes that introduce special case rules to specific armies. There are already a few, but many more would be unwelcome IMHO
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Post by Tankred Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:10 pm

I really enjoyed to read this conversation, too.

My experience with house rules is the same like Gaius and Jim mentioned it. Lorenzos knowlegde in ancient and medieval warfare is really outstanding and the rules cover so many different aspects of different battles. Unbelievable.

The difference is with the horses. I think it is extremely difficult to run a horse in a wood of sticks, you have to force this animal to do so. As you pointed out infantry can use shields and handweapons to get under the pikes.

I go with Pezhetairoi that the fact that the first rows in a phalanx suffered much in the long run since they could not be rotated with fresh troups easily. This is not really covered the opposite is the case. Since we still have the outflanking option for our roman friends I am ok with this.
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Post by AncientWarrior Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:58 pm

Gentlemen,

Stumbled across this during a lunch break today and thought to myself, why didn’t I reference this when I floated the idea/asked the question about foot, impetus, and enemy units with long pointy sticks. It’s from page 76 of CARNAGE AND CULTURE, by Victor Davis Hanson. It’s from Chapter 3, specifically, the one about Alexander at Gaugamela, and I realize that is very late to the discussion. Still, here it is:

“Nothing,” the historian Polybius concluded nearly two centuries later, “can stand up to the phalanx. The Roman by himself with his sword can neither slash down nor break through the ten spears that all at once press against him” (18.30.9-10). Surely, Polybius was correct: the idea that men could stand firm when three, four, five, and more iron spearheads plunged into their limbs, heads, necks, torsos, and legs is improbable. Since the first five ranks of the of the Macedonian phalanx would present a staggered wall of points—with the first row’s pikes extending ten feet into the killing zone—an enemy would have to fight his way through “a storm of spears” which protruded at every angle, before he could even reach the initial rank of the phalanx.

Enjoy the last week of July!

Regards,

Chris

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Post by Pezhetairoi Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:04 am

I'd be careful with Hanson, but Polybius is a great source. If you haven't already, read Polybius' whole account to get the full picture.
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Post by AncientWarrior Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:27 pm

Thanks for the advice and suggestion, Pezhetairoi.

I would imagine there are some, though perhaps not of this group, who would - or might - advise me to be careful with Polybius.

I gather you were referencing the "advantages and disadvantages of the phalanx" chapters?

The issue or argument appears to hinge on terrain. If I recall the rules correctly (stress the "if"), is not most formed infantry disordered in rough ground? So, both a large unit of pike and the Roman legionaries would be at a disadvantage.

Reserves and exploiting a vulnerable flank seem not only historical but borne out in experience on the tabletop as well.

To be sure, I defer to your (and others) experience and expertise.

By my question, suggestion, or experiment, I did not mean to impugn Lorenzo's knowledge or skill as a writer of rules.

Well, I'm off to work on my Issus project.

Regards,

Chris

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