Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

I played a number of games against warband units over the years and I have come to the conclusions that the bonus of 2 dice for large warband units against infantry should be removed. As it stands warbands are very cheap and hit enemy infantry units hard. Since they pretty much always fight as large units that gives them a bit of a bonus already against other infantry and the extra two dice makes it even harder to beat them.

I should add that we play 28mm so that tournament playing area is much tighter and makes the problem of warband infantry more difficult to deal with. This makes it harder even for cavalry to deal with warband infantry. In our regular games we play on 6' depth and my Byzantine cavalry, for instance, has lots of space to trade in shooting up the warbands. With 4' depth not so much space to trade.

As a compromise, perhaps only warbands in good order should get the bonus dice against infantry.

in Impetus 2 the power of Large Units will be limited.   

Thanks Lorenzo but what am I to do until then!  

dadiepiombo wrote:in Impetus 2 the power of Large Units will be limited.   

I like the sound of that .

hanks Lorenzo but what am I to do until then!

use Large Units  

Tarty wrote:

dadiepiombo wrote:in Impetus 2 the power of Large Units will be limited.   

I like the sound of that .

I like the sound of that too.  

Christopher

dadiepiombo wrote:in Impetus 2 the power of Large Units will be limited.   

Just make them pay for their power. Currently they are extremely cheap for a storming 10 dice vs infantry, it appears Large costs nothing in the points formula. Put in a 25% or whatever extra cost and that would help solve the issue.

Some have argued for no rear rank discount which would increase the cost a few points.

With respect, this smells like punishing the uppity barbarians rather than being based on anything tangible.

Surely the buttock-clenching fear of a warband assault upon your finely wrought ubermensch forces is something you want in a game? Particularly when you emerge bloodied and triumphant.

Even my pathetic Anatolians can deal with large warbands.

the cost will not chnahe unless you want to buy new editions of supplements   
Simply troops in line (groups) will have more advantages to compensate the Large Units. Also the depth bonus will be revised.

another issue is that the impetus bonus will be reduced not removed with losses. And for Large Units this means that it will start to be reduced with the losses of the rear unit.

Nice one Centurion!

dadiepiombo wrote:the cost will not chnahe unless you want to buy new editions of supplements   
Simply troops in line (groups) will have more advantages to compensate the Large Units. Also the depth bonus will be revised.

So the plan is to leave the supplements being valid and updating the core rules?

What a particularly smart and customer focussed approach!!!!

So the plan is to leave the supplements being valid and updating the core rules?

What a particularly smart and customer focussed approach!!!!

It appears Lorenzo didn't work for GW or if he did then he missed the class about how to properly shaft and squeeze every penny out of the customer.  

Christopher

Yes, I've always gotten the impression from Lorenzo's comments that except for EI1 the lists are sacrosanct and if changes are needed the rules will be adjusted.

I would prefer to make more Extras or scenarios books or campaigns books then repeat what already done. Unless really required. Extra 1 will not just re-made, but it will include more lists for the biblical period.

dadiepiombo wrote:I would prefer to make more Extras or scenarios books or campaigns books then repeat what already done. Unless really required. Extra 1 will not just re-made, but it will include more lists for the biblical period.

Yayy! Well done, Lorenzo.

Could you slip a Minoan/Mycenaean/Trojan series into that as well? It may not be Biblical but it's very suitable.

yes, sure.

Minoan/Mycenaean/Trojan... yes please!

A little more seriously. that sort of list calls for its own volume: Armies of the Iliad including the pre-Homeric Achaeans.

By the way, I apologise if this thread has been hi-jacked. It is better discussed in its own topic.

actually volumes have been already fixed, and all "biblical" stuff is Age of Chariot and Bronze

Excellent, Lorenzo.

And for what it's worth, I like bonus dice.

But that's just me. Heh heh.

We've played a lot of BI at the club (we're trying to get them to move to Impetus, but BI is the training mechanism    )
We've had a club campaign where a lot of people have fought Gauls and frankly without the bonus dice the Gauls would be toast.
Gauls with a front rank of VBU 5 are reasonably tough when up against legionaries, but so far the Gauls, whilst winning occasional melees, haven't actually won a battle.

Jim

I would agree with Jim entirely.

Whilst I have only played 4-5 games of Gauls v Romans, the warbands have yet to win a battle.

To reduce their power whilst leaving points unchanged seems to doom them to defeat and this is significantly compounded by the loss of impetus bonus if casualties are taken off the front rank. Pilum would make charging suicidal.

Unless of course the Romans are being down graded in some way or warbands are receiving benefits in another way?

As the one who started this conversation I must say that I am wavering a bit on the topic. My Middle Assyrians beat a Gaul army last week. It was a 600 point game on a 8' by 6' table which allowed my T troops and Chariots to trade space for effect. My opponent also rolled poorly. On a 6' by 4' table with 350 points the result was quite different so depth of the table seems to me to be part of the challenge.