Spartan Large Units

Just preparing a spartan army and notice that the list allows B class spears to be the rear unit behind A class spartans. As I see it the B class rear unit will in effect fight as A class as I assume the A status will apply throughout all combats as rear unit destroyed first, what is the rational behind this as points paid for a B clss unit but fights as A class am I missing something?
For the avoidance of doubt I assume this large unit formation for its DT will use the class of the lower ie B class so treated same way as different classes in a group.

The same question could be asked of the Later Etruscan League list, with a C class back unit and possible B class front unit. Your solution to combat with the front, DT with the back, makes sense, but I hope Lorenzo addresses this issue.

I read the later Etruscan list slightly differently than you not saying i'm right though. The notes say large units have to be of the same type so i read it if you use the upgrade to B they would fight just in single rank like their equivalent in the early etruscan list. Think Lornzo will need to clarify and my earlier query re the Spartans. Regards eric

Meant to also have said i think the way the list is worded its giving you the option to have an extra 6 elite units which aren't allowed to form large units.

Ejc, based on the example in Warbook 1, I am not sure that’s correct. Take a look at the example in the book:

Example 2
6-30 Hoplites FP 4 2 B 1 Long Spear/Hoplon 18/14
up 1/2D Hoplites (front rank) FP 5 2 B 2 Long Spear/Hoplon 23
In this case you can have the upgrade only for front ranks of Large Units. If you don’t form Large Units then all Hoplites are VBU=4. But you can also have Large Units with VBU=4 + 4 and ignore the upgrade, of course.

I am looking at the Spartan list and I don't see where Spartan Hoplites have any option but to purchase a rear rank of A class troops. In fact, you have to buy the Spartan Hoplites as a large 6/4 or 5/4 A unit. What am I missing.

With the Later Etruscan League I took the 5/2 B Hoplites as single stand units. I agree though that Lorenzo needs to clarify this point.

I can't think of any example where a large unit in Impetus has a different Discipline rating between the front and back ranks (although in principle it could work.)

The notes on the spartan list states that the Perioikoi hoplites which are B class can form the rear unit of spartan hoplites which are A class. Unfortunately there is no clear explanation how they operate. When we use these units we treat the large unit as B class for DT and A class for combat. Hopefully Lorenzo will clarify. Regards Eric

I understand Kenntak where you're coming from but the list doesn't actually say the upgrade is for the front rank nor give any stats. for a rear rank for B class to me its a bit ambiguous the way its presented. Our group have interpreted as in my 1st reply. In the earlier list Lorenzo makes a point of saying they didn't fight in deep formation so perhaps these upgrades and the elites are a throw back to the earlier peroid. Suggest play it as you feel most appropriate. Regards Eric

Now I see. The wording in the Spartan list is very clumsy and the additional note comes in a bracket right after Pikes so I think it is very questionable what is meant here. It really should be noted in the errata. There are no specific rules for mixed discipline units so I am guessing that using back rank Periokoi for a Spartan led large hoplite unit is not what is being suggested. Again, the way the list is presented the player has to buy the large Spartan A hoplite unit as one.

Ejc, that's a good point that the Etruscan list fails to limit the upgrade to the front rank. However, what makes me think the Etruscan list is offering the option of a deep unit with upgraded class A in the front rank is the fact that the list states the following in two separate lines:

up 6 Hoplites FP 5 2 B 3

0-2 Elite FP 5 2 B 3

The Elite hoplites could be the holdover from the earlier Etruscan list, leaving the optional upgrade for the deep unit.

Then again, the Hyksos list offers an example where it specifically states that Elite Retinue can form large units with Retinue, thereby making it clear how the deep units could be formed in that list.

Ejc, if you are correct, would that preclude the use of upgraded warriors as the front rank in a deep unit in the Gauls list? That list allows deep warriors with an upgrade 1/3D at 5 4 C 2. Because it does not say "front rank" would that preclude a deep unit with the upgraded warriors, and only allow them to be used non-deep?

Hopefully Lorenzo clarifies this.

Hello Kenntak. I follow your logic we've had this exact discussion in our group. You could well be right in which case the notes would require an errata which say'Hoplites with long spear, gallic warbands can form large Units (same type)'. The upgrades aren't the same so this would have to be amended. We decided to go with the wording which would preclude them from forming large group with C class until told otherwise. With your knowledge of the period if you feel it justified to fight in depth with different types in files go with it until we here from Lorenzo.
In the hysksos list the Elites Retinue are the same type as the Retinue the list makes a point that they can form large units with retinue. In the later Etruscan list the notes are silent on this point. If you go with large unit would be interested to know whether you wouwould treat them the same as we do with spartans front rank quality for combat rear rank for DT? Somebody in our group suggested that when the rear rank is destroyed the front rank should be downgraded to that of the rear rank on the basis most of the better troops have been butchered and replaced by rear troops we didnt go along with that. Regards Eric

Gaius are you suggesting there's a possible error in the notes where it says .....but Periokoi can form the rear unit of Spartan hoplites' and could have been referring to the pike? The list for the periokoi non citizen pikemen doesn't have stats. for rear ranks. All very confusing as you say no rules for mixed unit.

A few things.

The Late Etruscan list includes the opportunity to upgrade the Hoplites to single stand units. I don't see how one reads the list in any other way.

The inclusion of the Elite Hoplites is a feature of the list that allows for more upgraded units apart from the list requirements. Functionally they are the same as the upgrades but they operate differently in list constructions.

As far as the Gauls go, I think one could have VBU5 upgraded stands used as stand alone units. That would be crazy since the main benefit of the upgrade makes the Large Warband unit as a whole far more effective. The reason it is written this way is that it structures the Gaul player to have 2/3 of the large warband units with VBU5 as the front and 1/3 of the large warband units with VBU4 as the front unit.

Hello Gaius re kenntags query if i remember you put sumilar query on furum about the late ertruscan upgrade had a quick look but couldn't see it. Just wondering if Lorenzo might have answered your query as may well solve the issue for Kenntag. Regards Eric

We've never had mixed discipline large units in Impetus....that's a very standard rule of thumb across the board.

I don't have the books in front of me but it does sound like a misunderstanding in the army list wording going off this thread.

Think I see the misunderstanding.

'The defeat by Thebes in the Battle of Leuctra in 371 BC ended Sparta’s prominent role.
Hoplites, Pikes can form Large Units (same type but Periokoi can form rear the Unit of Spartan hoplites).'

The wording is referring to the first sentence.... post Leuctra. These are all B grade so all good.

Ejc, for your information, here is the other thread:

https://impetus.darkbb.com/t1479-later-etruscan-league?highlight=etruscan

Lorenzo has not yet addressed this matter.

ok, I think that this is a consequence of a simplification of the Sparatn list where in origins there were also Spartans with D=B.
Now, as the rear Unit cannot exceed VBU 4 and considering that you have already a good quantity of Spartans with VBU 6 (so you can make up 4 LU with VBU 6 on the front) simply remove the sentence: Periokoi can form LU with Spartan hoplites).

It will be added in the errata.

Thanks Lorenzo that solves the issue. This came up again following Kenntags query on larer Etruscan league upgrades as you will see above. Would please resolve this one as well. Thanks Eric

Ejc, I made a seprate rules entry for the Etruscans so it stands out better for others.