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Large Units

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Large Units

Post by Sargon on Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:07 pm

A question about Large Units;
Large Units with long spear get a depth bonus in melee. Does that mean that both units have to have long spear or do you also get the benefit if the rear unit is, say, supporting archers? I assume not, but just checking.
Thanks!

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Re: Large Units

Post by Zippee on Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:30 pm

I think you'll find that supporting archers specifically state that they do not provide any depth bonus.

You still benefit in that the rear base has to be eliminated first and all combat is with the front base, so they're still tough but to get the depth bonus you need to both be the right sort of unit.
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Re: Large Units

Post by RogerC on Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:19 pm

I can't see anything in BI2 that explicitly answers this, but I agree with you both that 'mixed' large units shouldn't get a depth bonus.

Rule 7.3 refers to large units 'of pikemen' etc., which implies the large unit should be all of one type to get the bonus. The same is true in 'full' Impetus, although I am cautious about carrying over ideas from Impetus since there are so many differences in BI2.

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Re: Large Units

Post by Zippee on Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:03 pm

RC makes a good point and on checking, I see the statement isn't actually in BI2. As far as I can see this is all we know:

The Rules 2.5.1 wrote:
Some Large Units get a Depth bonus

This makes it clear the depth bonus isn't universal which is helpful - some large units do not have a depth bonus. If not mixed archer large units which ones?

the Rules 7.3 wrote:
In melee, Large Units of Pikemen have a 4 dice bonus against Mounted troops and a 2 dice against Infantry.
Large Units (not impetuous) with Long spears or Polearms have a 2 dice bonus against Mounted and 1 dice against Infantry.
Warbands (Impetuous FL or FP) have a 2 dice bonus against Infantry.

As RC says - not explicit but no mention of any T units for depth bonus. Nor any reference of 'mixed' units. It would be sensible to assume a large unit of pikemen is entirely pikemen, not some pikemen with a bunch of archers.

The QRS wrote:
DEPTH BONUS (LARGE UNITS)
+4 Foot with Pike VS Mounted
+2 Foot with Pike VS Foot
+2 Foot (not impetuous) with Long spear/Polearm VS Mounted
+1 Foot (not impetuous) with Long spear/Polearm VS Foot
+2 Warbands (impetuous FL or FP) VS Foot

This to my mind backs up the assumption that depth bonus applies only to the given weapon not to mixed units - surely a mixed unit would provide a different depth bonus just as a change in target changes it?

There is no clarification in any of the army lists I looked at (obviously I didn't read them all!)

As supporting archers are equipped with some form of bow and the depth bonus seems [mostly] linked to specific weapons I'm still inclined to think that (as in full Impetus) archers do not provide depth bonus.

However as RC points out that is a presumption and possibly dangerous, so it would be helpful to have it clarified by Lorenzo.
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Re: Large Units

Post by Lemurcat on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:58 pm

I came to the same conclusion that weapon type is the determining factor for depth bonus.
I have WOR armies and the lists in the rules state, "Dismounted MAA can form large units with Billman but Polearm is lost". I have assumed, perhaps with danger, that this means the depth bonus is not applied due to mixed weapon type.

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Re: Large Units

Post by Zippee on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:48 pm

That's an interesting one - I'd agree with your assumption.

I think it would be cleared up if the phrase "entirely equipped" was added to 7.3. to whit:

In melee, Large Units entirely equipped with Pikes have a 4 dice bonus against Mounted troops and a 2 dice against Infantry.
Large Units (not impetuous) entirely equipped with either Long spears or Polearms have a 2 dice bonus against Mounted and 1 dice against Infantry.
Warbands (Impetuous FL or FP) have a 2 dice bonus against Infantry.

The Warband line doesn't seem to cause any issues - I assume that there is a presumption that the LU must be either entirely FP or entirely FL - 2.5.1 doesn't state that though . . .
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Re: Large Units

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:25 pm

It seems that some of us read BI through the eyes of Impetus. That seems pretty natural to me.
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Re: Large Units

Post by dadiepiombo on Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:09 am

no support for mixed units. Probably could be more explicit, but support is for Large Units of Pike, Spears etc. Not mixed.
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