Latest topics
» A few questions on large units, pilums and multiple melees
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptyTue May 21, 2019 2:06 pm by Gaius Cassius

» Interpenetration and Displacement
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptyFri May 17, 2019 6:19 pm by RogerC

» Measurement Question In Basic Impetus 2.0
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptyFri May 17, 2019 5:46 pm by Zombiefy

» Base Depth: 40mm vs 60mm for FP and FL?
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptyThu May 16, 2019 2:31 pm by Gaius Cassius

» Battle of Harzhorn Salute 2019
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptySun May 12, 2019 5:24 pm by Marcus Aurelius MD

» The Illiad = The Wrath of Achilles
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptyThu May 09, 2019 8:04 pm by ejc

» Charges/ counter chares
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptyWed May 08, 2019 2:32 pm by dadiepiombo

» Can a general move with a unit after attaching same turn
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptyWed May 08, 2019 2:23 pm by dadiepiombo

» Byzantine 28mm
Evading and Reaction Fire EmptyMon May 06, 2019 5:38 pm by stecal

Battle of Harzhorn Salute 2019

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:13 pm by ejc

Our group is putting on the above at the EXcell Centre London being the SAlute …

Comments: 14

The Illiad = The Wrath of Achilles

Thu May 09, 2019 12:41 pm by ejc

We will be putting this game on at one of the Autumn shorws probably Colours or …

Comments: 1

The Battle of Apamea at Hotlead

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:50 am by Gaius Cassius

Hotlead is Canada's leading Miniature Wargames Convention. It is held in 2019 …

Comments: 2

BI2 tournament - 12 May 2018 - CANCELLED

Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:26 am by RogerC

EDIT I am very sorry, but I’ve had to CANCEL this tournament. I’ve …

Comments: 9

Vapnartak. Sunday 4th February 2018 Knavesmere Stand York Racecourse

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:54 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Hi Gents

York is the usual first event in the UK Impetus calendar. This year …

Comments: 28

Basic Impetus 2 Comp, January 2018?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:03 am by Aurelius

I've brought the confirmed details for the Basic Impetus competition to the …

Comments: 32

May 2019
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
  12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

Calendar Calendar


Evading and Reaction Fire

Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat May 13, 2017 1:31 pm

In the original rules CL and S could automatically evade. In later developments the evade option became a Discipline Test and expanded to include CM and CGL. I am curious about how the following has been interpreted in other groups.

Suppose a enemy T unit fires on a CM in good order within the CM's ZOC. The CM attempts to evade but fails the DT. Can the CM now chose to return fire or has that ability been superceded by the failed evade attempt?
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 965
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Zippee on Mon May 15, 2017 1:44 pm

Can't say it's come up but to return fire it would need to use opportunity (either ZOC or diced status).

For my money failing (a relatively easy) DT to evade would be an attempt to (re)act and thus either prevent it from using an opportunity (re)action or remove its opportunity staus, depending on how you view it.

In any case I think the player should choose how to react to the situation and then live with the consequences.

For instance if we reverse the situation and say the CM choose to shoot, roll badly and then ask if they can evade would you entertain the notion?

Simplicity and decision nexus would seem to coincide here to generate a better game by limiting the option to one or the other not both.
Zippee
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 611
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 55
Location : Lincolnshire, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Tarty on Mon May 15, 2017 10:56 pm

Interesting don't remember this coming up before either. I would agree with Zippee - can't have your cake and eat it situation here I think.

Tarty
Tarty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 569
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed May 17, 2017 2:21 pm

Actually thinking about it, why not? We already have situations where a reaction is conditional - you can shoot if your move does not bring you to contact for instance. Consistency is probably important, and as written I think they probably could
Cyrus The Adequate
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 566
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Tarty on Thu May 18, 2017 2:52 am

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:you can shoot if your move does not bring you to contact for instance.
Not sure I'm following you Cyrus ?...sorry Neutral
Tarty
Tarty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 569
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Zippee on Thu May 18, 2017 8:04 am

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:Actually thinking about it, why not? We already have situations where a reaction is conditional - you can shoot if your move does not bring you to contact for instance. Consistency is probably important, and as written I think they probably could

can I shoot and opportunity charge?

can I shoot and counter-charge?

can I opportunity charge and then evade?

shooting when my move doesn't contact the enemy isn't a reaction - the enemy reacted (by evading presumably) I'm conducting my activation and in my activation I can do multiple things.

I can't think of a single situation where I can do multiple things as part of a reaction. I may be able to react multiple times to different stimuli but that's different.

I'm all for consistency but I don't understand your claim.
Zippee
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 611
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 55
Location : Lincolnshire, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by dadiepiombo on Thu May 18, 2017 12:46 pm

if you evade (try to) you cannot perform any other further (re)actions.
Anyway from a tactical point of view I would countercharge/fire back with a CM instead of taking fire with just 1 die less.
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 999
Reputation : 40
Join date : 2014-05-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu May 18, 2017 3:45 pm

Thanks for the responses. I can see both ways of thinking on this but the more I think about it the more I am in agreement with Cyrus. Since evade is an either or proposition I wasn't completely certain whether it qualifies as a reaction response when the DT fails. The question is whether the attempt at evade is the reaction response or is it the evade itself the reaction response. In this understanding an evade failure signifies that there is no reaction to the originating event (in this case missile fire) and the CM in question could then make a reaction response (fire or countercharge.) I think that is what Cyrus was getting at. With that said, I am completely content to have it as Lorenzo says.

Overall, I agree that it is generally better to countercharge or fire but sometimes it may make sense to try and evade the CM back into better supported position.


Last edited by Gaius Cassius on Thu May 18, 2017 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 965
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by dadiepiombo on Thu May 18, 2017 3:53 pm

I think that a failed evasion must be seen as an order issued but for some reason not executed in time or simply not correctly issued or issued in time.
At the same time a ZOC reaction is the only action you can do. So you have to make a choice. Beeing the enemy already in ZOC, so pretty close, I see correct to have more chance of success in standing.
dadiepiombo
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 999
Reputation : 40
Join date : 2014-05-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu May 18, 2017 3:57 pm

Is that the case Lorenzo? Or is it more that from a command perspective the unit in question is doing what it wants to do and not what, I, the overall commander want it to do. So the failure of the DT to evade simply means the local commander has decided to stay and fight.
Gaius Cassius
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 965
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Thu May 18, 2017 7:55 pm

I'm happy with the clarification, and I can see all sides of the argument. Situations such as this are quite rare. I think GC has a valid point - they troops have failed to react in the way the commander would wish - that doesn't mean they have failed to react.

Maybe the issue lies with "free" DT tests, ie those that do not result in disorder when failed? If this were the case the point would be moot as failing the DT would take the Cav off opportunity....

There probably lies another can of worms

Cyrus The Adequate
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 566
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Tarty on Thu May 18, 2017 11:14 pm

This is not going to come up very often... if at all.

As I see it the shooting triggers the evade response ....which doesn't get off the ground (for whatever reason). Being so close to the enemy is the problem, couldn't imagine you'd get much of a chance for a plan B response under those circumstances.
Tarty
Tarty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 569
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri May 19, 2017 1:09 pm

What if the reason the "reason" the evade doesnt happen is that the troops want to shoot back?
Cyrus The Adequate
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 566
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Zippee on Fri May 19, 2017 1:45 pm

then the confusion caused by contradictory troop movements within the unit is such that it ensures the shooting is wholly ineffective.

You made a decision, you rolled the dice, the thing you wanted didn't happen - you don't get to do something else instead.

Zippee
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 611
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 55
Location : Lincolnshire, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Evading and Reaction Fire Empty Re: Evading and Reaction Fire

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum