Heavy Javelin (weapon creep!)

No, I meant turn them back into to regular old javelins & get rid of demi-pilum heavy javelin

Actually I think if Lorenzo changes the reactions/opportunity system in Impetus 2 to something similar to Baroque then a lot of these things will sort themselves out.

I agree Zippee the Impetus 'tool box' as it stands struggles a little with pilum/heavy javelin type weapons.

The 'point blank' dice before combat category under a new reaction system will put a whole new spin on things for these guys.

what of these solutions would prefer to improve FL VBU 5 with Javelin?

1) VBU 5 FL has only 1 shot
2) VBU 5 FL pay for movement
(detract 1 when they fire and move)
3) VBU 5 FL cannot move and shot in the same turn

I think it's VBU 5 FL Jav combined with rolling fire (interpenetration) that's the problem.
Perhaps number 2 they should pay for the move if firing

No 2 is the best of the offered options, Lorenzo.

As Tarty says, it's interpenetration that is at the heart of it. I think a test for disorder on any stands that have interpenetrated and fired. We test for a failed S evade so why not a disorder test on FL javelins doing a more difficult thing?

in Impetus 2 interpenetration will bring more penalties.
But this should be for all troops.

So far, for the new Advanced Impetus, the Heavy Javelin amendement could be turned into a penalty on the "move and fire" for FL with VBU 5. In this way they fire similar to FL with VBU 4.

A fourth option could be that VBU5 FL can move half move if wants to fire (still getting the -1 penalty)

Hi I wonder is another option that there simply are no VBU 5 FL "with javelin" troops?

I have faced the Irish army which had these before the change to heavy javelin was made. I think the curious point to lots of players was why were the Irish graded as VBU 5 ? Was there something historically significant about them as opposed to other javelin armed FL.

Perhaps there should just be the very rare example of this type of troop class and a special note as to why these are justified historically?

Jez

jeztodd wrote:Hi I wonder is another option that there simply are no VBU 5 FL "with javelin" troops?

I have faced the Irish army which had these before the change to heavy javelin was made. I think the curious point to lots of players was why were the Irish graded as VBU 5 ? Was there something historically significant about them as opposed to other javelin armed FL.

Perhaps there should just be the very rare example of this type of troop class and a special note as to why these are justified historically?

Jez

Interestingly Jez, that was Lorenzo's original position. FL with VBU5 were battle infantry and not heavy skirmish screens so no javelin. Then the two lists with FL VBU5 javelin infantry came out much to our surprise. Personally, unless the lists are changed I think the heavy javelin rule works better than all of the above options. It rebalances this unit type. I would definitely not give javelin to VBU5 FL (except for the few exceptions in the lists where the number of units are minimal.)

In the lists other than Samnite and Irish I've only found VBU5 FL with javelin in the Spanish (Elite Scutarii) and Alexander (Veteran Peltasts) lists. So it is a very rare troop type. I have no problem with either example.

With Pilum you get 1d6 if you charge and 3d6 if you don't.
So effectively there the Romans get -2d6 for moving and firing.
But if you're doing this you'll have to factor it in, so that troops attacking still get the heavy javelin

the heavy javelin was the best option to remove the shooting of javelin to FL with VBU 5. FL with VBU 5 is more melee troops style, but they are not line heavy foot and the heavy javelin allows to depict a minimun of "shooting/skimishing" still when in contact.

Now, why Irish foot was so overpowered? Well in the list you try to give the best chances to the most possible armies. It is a question of balance. All of you are talking about games with the same points and we all know that no historical battle was fough "with the same points".

Would you play the Irish only with FL 4? Probably not.
There are too many VBU 5 FL in the list? Probably yes, but it is very hard to find a good balance.

I think that with the heavy javelin rule as it is they are what they pay and it seems to me to depict better that troop type.

Anyway we can see other options.

We are only talking about two lists in regards to lots of FL VBU5 javelin, Irish and Samnite. As I said above, I think the heavy javelin rule works very well for depicting Samnite infantry so it seems to me we only have one list to struggle over. I don't know much about the Irish army of the period covered by the list in question so I can't really speak to what best represents the Bonnact.

Gaius Cassius wrote:We are only talking about two lists in regards to lots of FL VBU5 javelin, Irish and Samnite. As I said above, I think the heavy javelin rule works very well for depicting Samnite infantry so it seems to me we only have one list to struggle over. I don't know much about the Irish army of the period covered by the list in question so I can't really speak to what best represents  the Bonnact.  

And all the future lists that may refer back to them.

Heavy Javelin is a solution looking for a problem - if the problem hadn't been generated by creating VBU5 FL it wouldn't be needed as a solution.

Everything was fine in the FL fishpond until the VBU 5 FL appeared. It needs to be removed, otherwise soon as eggs is caviar, someone will be writing a list with VBU 6 FL because clearly Nepalese Monks are better than Irish Bonnachts . . .

dadiepiombo wrote:what of these solutions would prefer to improve FL VBU 5 with Javelin?

1) VBU 5 FL has only 1 shot
2) VBU 5 FL pay for movement
(detract 1 when they fire and move)
3) VBU 5 FL cannot move and shot in the same turn

1) If VBU 5 FL have only one shot then so must all pilum types - hard to justify otherwise. This has been resisted before but it is the mechanic used in Baroque and so far the memory issue isn't proving a problem.

2) This addresses the principle problem practice of shuttle firing but I really don't like one type of FL being able to do a thing another type can't. it seems very arbitrary and can only be explained as necessary because the rules are broken. It's inelegant and basically an admission that VBU 5 FL are a mistake.

3) Similar objections to 2, why is this the case beyond repairing a broken rule? It's also extreme what other Impetus troop type suffers this restriction?

Apart from 1, what you're really saying is that VBU 5 FL aren't really a shooty troop type, so take the javelins away, give 'em an extra impetus point and be done with it. Or better still demote them back to VBU 4 and add the impetus factor in.

FL VBU 5 are to represent an heavier fighter than the VBU 4 FL, still more flexible on movement than an FP.
Impetus has not such things like "fast", "inferior" "superior" like DBM. All is modelled on the values: VBU, Movement, Discipline.
So I don't see an issue on allowing an FL with VBU5 something different to an FL with VBU 4.

Mind that FL can be both a Roman Auxilia or a Celt Warrior.

I think Zippee meant to say, VBU 5 FL javelin infantry. The generic VBU 5 FL is reasonably common in the lists. Up to Samnitte and Irish, however, there were no  VBU5 FL javelin infantry other than Elite Scutarii and the Veteran Peltasts. These two types were limited in number and in the Elite Scutarii case, have high VD (3).

The idea Lorenzo, is that by allowing VBU5 FL to have javelin that it really unhinges the relative balance in Impetus. Heavy Javelin seems a reasonable compromise to the current system as it reinforces the idea that they are battle infantry.

Interestingly, when the Thracian Peltasts are upgraded in their list they do not get javelin or heavy javelin. They simply become VBU5 infantry. Why the difference?

personally I'm satsfied with the heavy javelin rules as it seemd to me that depict correctly that troop type.

But this old thread was re-opened, so I thought there was demand of a change. Probably not.

Differences in the lists come because I try to make all (in theory) armies good to compete. The Irish simply had no many other options. As they performed mostly guerrila I kept the javelin for their best troops.

Thracians have many more options. Those with VBU 5 are not an upgrade VBU 4 FL, but Peltast with Long Spear.

Thanks GC, yes I did mean VBU 5 FL javelin - I thought that was the troop type under discussion

dadiepiombo wrote:
Thracians have many more options. Those with VBU 5 are not an upgrade VBU 4 FL, but Peltast with Long Spear.

As per my earlier post (from the first time this thread was live ) VBU5 long spear FL is not an "upgrade" of VBU 4 javelin FL in any way shape or form. It's more expensive and it has a higher VBU but it's a much worse troop type.

So increasing to VBU 5 alone isn't the problem, VBU 5 shooty FL, they are the problem and until the Irish came along were essentially non-existent.

It's always been possible that the real problem is the performance of shooty FL period. Again see earlier comment in thread about Kappadokiann FL being far better assault troops than Gallic Noble cavalry! It's been nice that crappy hill tribes are now a very useful troop type unlike most rules where they are speed bumps. And it makes several otherwise unplayable armies, not only playable but really rather good. But they probably need taking down a peg or two.

So maybe rather than limiting your options just to VBU 5 FL javelin, you should consider extending them across all. That way it wouldn't appear to be an arbitrary neutering of a mistake but an adjustment of an entire troop type. So you could apply Option 2 to all FL javelin. . .

Actually there has always been VBU5 Javelin armed FL - even in the original rule book the Persian Takabara could upgrade from 4 to 5, as could Hannibals Spaniards and some Alexandrian Peltasts, however there is only a maximum of 8 Takabara and less of the others so this wasnt seen as a problem, particularly as we were playing 300 point competitions so that really meant only 4 max.

In extra 4 all the FL were either 4 w Jav or 5 without, and this applied to those already in the other lists - ie those Takabara I mentioned. Everyone thought that seemed reasonable. Then Extra 5 came and the Bonnachts broke both the limited number restriction AND the 4 with 5 without convention.

I like Heavy Javelin as an option - its just a generic factor for melee troops that have a significant amount of thrown weapons before contact. I dont see it as being a good representation of the Irish at all - but it could be a useful option to add some differentiation in some troops.

As far as the actual Irish list the Bonnachts themselve seem to be a bit strange - as I understand it the term just mean "billeted troops" so making them a distinct troop tyoe seems an error. The Kerns are ;ight infantry with a mix of missile and melee weapons so 4-1 Jav isnt a bad representation. The Galloglass are clearly the melee infantry in the army.

As for the Bonnachts, the best solution is to delete the entry in the list totally or allow an upgrade of up to half Kerns from C class to B Class.

At the risk of repeating both myself (and Zippee) the problem isnt the Heavy Javelin rule it's the Irish list.

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:Actually there has always been VBU5 Javelin armed FL - even in the original rule book the Persian Takabara could upgrade from 4 to 5, as could Hannibals Spaniards and some Alexandrian Peltasts, however there is only a maximum of 8 Takabara and less of the others so this wasnt seen as a problem, particularly as we were playing 300 point competitions so that really meant only 4 max.

I was editing to add "essentially" to the non-existent as you typed this

I agree it has always been the contention of this thread that the Irish were the problem because suddenly VBU  5 shooty FL appeared in numbers.

I know that Lorenzo says that the original lists in the Impetus rules are still valid but personally I don't think they should be. List writing in Impetus has evolved since the rules came out.

It is not technically correct that all EI4 lists have either VBU4 FL javelin or VBU5 without javelin. Alexander's list in EI4 has VBU5 with javelin (Veteran Peltasts) and the Iberian list has Elite Scutarii of the same rating. They are, however, the exception (as Zippee says, essentially non existent) and the numbers are relatively small (the Elite Scutarii are the more numerous but they come with the caveat of having VD3 making them risky to use.)

I agree that the big problem is the Irish list. It should be amended or redesigned.

keep calm and ban the Irish list from competitions (though it seems that with haevy javelin they are not so strong)
Every national circuit has freedom to adjust such things.

After the release of Impetus 2 all lists will be revised. Not immediately, but after some time.

Banning is extreme, I think.

A simple amendment restricting the number of VBU5 +javelin bonnachts is sufficient. Treat them as an upgrade.

And the almughavars are still being punished for being good at their job.

Hey Rex, how about 1 bonnacht? Okay maybe 2!

Gaius Cassius wrote:Hey Rex, how about 1 bonnacht? Okay maybe 2!

Hahaha .....and those Almughavars need to be punished Starkers

Cripes, Tarty can confirm the amazing awfulness of my dice rolling, GC. I need all the help I can get.