Opportunity charges

I'm trying to get my head around this.

First, I have a simple question that I can't find an answer to. Can groups do an opportunity charge? My guess is no, but I can't find or put together enough to get that clear in my head.

Second, what happens in this situation? A unit moves up towards a unit that is on opportunity. It will stop 1u outside the movement distance of the unit on opportunity. That unit declares a charge using the charge bonus to make contact. What are the options for the original unit?

To make it concrete, say both units are lance armed heavy cavalry. Does the unit on opportunity complete the charge getting its impetus bonus while the original unit (that was moving) just get hit without using its impetus bonus? Or does it have some chance to countercharge?

1) Yes. The title of par. 2.6.4 is "Units and Groups on Opportunity"

2) If I have understood correctly here we have a charge and a countercharge (not a charge by opportunity).
If the original Unot was on charge then it gets its impetus bonus (unless nullified by other factors)

Thanks. I read the text twice and didn't bother to look at the heading I guess!

Re 2) the moving unit ends its move at charge distance plus 1u, so it isn't on charge yet, it's just moving. The opportunity unit takes its opportunity at the end of the first units move.

If the original Unit was on its last move (=charge) then it has not the impetus bonus.
Sounds odd, but you are aware thet the opponent in on opportunity, so you have to take the right timing.

You can charge with a bonus movement or with more movements. Hardly you will stop at 1U. More easily your opponents (the one on opportunity) will use its reaction to countercharge so saving you the risk to take a second move.

OK. That kind of helps but raises a new confusion.

So, let's say we're dealing with two heavy cav units so they have the same movement. You're stopped outside the charge reach (say 12Us for argument sake, you could get there on a single charge with the bonus but might come up short) but he's sitting on opportunity. In your activation you say, I'm charging by doing a move and then a charge. Is that allowed? And if he interrupts your first move in this case, it's not really considered interrupting a move, it's considered a countercharge? I guess I can believe that, it would be nice if it were clarified somewhere (and if it is, I'd love to have a pointer to it).

From memory we've covered this before but there is an advantage to calling a number of moves for an active unit - if it is opportunity charged then it still counts as moving and has Impetus whereas if you call it phase by phase then your opponent can hit you after you have stopped at the end of a given phase and you count as stationary.

Equally others disagree with this view, if we could get it clarified that would be excellent.

Yes has been discussed before. Good thing to do is declare your intentions before moving...this has kind of been our house rule to avoid this situation.

In Baroque I'm simplifyfing this so if the units are facing each other both have the impetus.
In other words if the contacts is between the frontages of the units then both have the impetus.
I think this can be extended to Impetus as it is now.

Could be interpreted another way as well. If Unit A declares his intentions (even as a series of activations), then anyone (Unit or Group B) on Opportunity can Opportunity Charge at any time. If Unit B chooses to Opportunity Charge while Unit A is still advancing and before Unit A charges, then Unit B has anticipated Unit A's intention and has caught Unit A before Unit A has a chance to charge so the Opportunity Charge takes place before Unit A has actually charged.

Does that makes sense?

Dennis

Dennis Maxentius wrote:Could be interpreted another way as well.   If Unit A declares his intentions (even as a series of activations), then anyone (Unit or Group B) on Opportunity can Opportunity Charge at any time.   If Unit B chooses to Opportunity Charge while Unit A is still advancing and before Unit A charges, then Unit B has anticipated Unit A's intention and has caught Unit A before Unit A has a chance to charge so the Opportunity Charge takes place before Unit A has actually charged.

Does that makes sense?

Dennis

Sounds gamey.

dadiepiombo wrote:In Baroque I'm simplifyfing this so if the units are facing each other both have the impetus.
In other words if the contacts is between the frontages of the units then both have the impetus.
I think this can be extended to Impetus as it is now.

I like the simplicity of this but I'm very new to the rules, so I wonder whether it changes anything else.

One thing we haven't played with yet is legionaries with pila. As it stands now it seems like legionaries with pila get 3 dice before impact from throwing the pila, but no impetus from standing still. Does this impact that?

I agree with Dennis. The sequence works well for us. The unit on opportunity has the advantage of interrupting the move on the enemy which is the whole purpose of being on opportunity in the first place. Makes for a real cat and mouse interaction. Remember, for the unit on opportunity to charge the moving unit it must move out of line and advance 11U. This in itself would make one consider waiting for the second move and counter-charging the unit instead (and keeping the unit on opportunity closer to its support.) The advancing unit only has to decide advancing on a second move after making the first. If the advancing unit in the above example ends its move and doesn't make a second move the unit on opportunity at that point can't do anything since opportunity charging can only be made against advancing/charging units. As I said a real cat and mouse back and forth exists in Impetus and makes it very fun.

I'm with Dennis and GC on this one. If the opportunity charge can hit the advancing enemy on a move, rather than a charge or potential charge, the enemy doesn't get impetus. Maybe it is a bit gamey, but makes for more choices. Do I opportunity charge now, and end up stranded far in advance of my other units, or do I wait to see if the enemy will be disordered anyway.

And as GC notes, as an opportunity charge has to interrupt a move, if I wait to see if the enemy is disordered, I won't be able to make the opportunity charge if fails it's discipline test after a second move.

RogerC

RogerC wrote:I'm with Dennis and GC on this one. If the opportunity charge can hit the advancing enemy on a move, rather than a charge or potential charge, the enemy doesn't get impetus. Maybe it is a bit gamey, but makes for more choices.

Yep so long as this is made clear to all playing at the time ... it's fine.

I've had to mediate a few newbies in comps who got caught out with opportunity charges ....telling them they had no impetus was difficult. Lesson learnt the hard way. What Lorenzo is suggesting is certainly a way of fixing what some find as confusing.

Newbies usually focus on the total dice rolled in melee. After a bit of gaming you realize that VBU is far more important. Game a little longer and the principle focus shifts to keeping troops in good order and mitigating the impact of disorder. But Impetus is ultimately a game of VD (the most boring stat) and managing the VD of one's commands is the ultimate level of play. It takes most of us many games of Impetus to realize this.

The moral of the story is losing a few impetus dice is irrelevant. Nor is gaining a few impetus dice important either. I would never opportunity charge an opponent just to get a few dice on him. Position and keeping units supported is far more important.

I'm with Dennis and GC on this one. If the opportunity charge can hit the advancing enemy on a move, rather than a charge or potential charge, the enemy doesn't get impetus. Maybe it is a bit gamey, but makes for more choices. Do I opportunity charge now, and end up stranded far in advance of my other units, or do I wait to see if the enemy will be disordered anyway.

And as GC notes, as an opportunity charge has to interrupt a move, if I wait to see if the enemy is disordered, I won't be able to make the opportunity charge if fails it's discipline test after a second move.

RogerC

This is how has alwasy been interepreted. So if you like this no problems. If players feel better in the other (simplified) way non problems. Countercharges are not very common, actually.

The important is to differentiate a countercharge from a charge by opportunity.
In the first case A is charging B and B reacts, so that both charge.
In the second case A charges B, BUT B is charged by opportunity by C. In this case we have a "surprise" that nullifies the bonus of A, that from charger becomes charged.

First, thanks for the feedback everyone, but I'm left wondering what to do.

One question remains about rules clarification. Someone said you'd maintain position rather than opp charge to get a few dice. I guess I don't understand as I thought it was possible to opp charge with a group? So you could bring your supports along in some way?

I'll defer to people with more experience playing but as I look at this, it reminds me of the last game of DBR I played. We each had a group of pistol/f just outside of charge reach of the other and would not move into charge range because the other guy would get to charge first. It's hard to see how moving into charge reach of someone on opp and being down a bunch of dice is a winning proposition.

Thanks everyone for the support.   I was just trying to show that rules can be interpreted different ways.   I find that players usually have a hard time understanding the difference between Opportunity Charges and Counter Charges and also between actions that can trigger the effects of Opportunity and actions available to Units actually being placed on Opportunity.

Also, as discussed earlier, once a few games are played the players will understand what is more important at the time, better cohesion or more dice.   Generally I don't rely on Impetus Bonus.

Sometimes you need to temp the opponent into making a commitment or interrupt his move to disrupt the rest of his force.   All depends what you aim to achieve.   If you can delay your opponent from making a commitment by having a Unit on Opportunity, then you can concentrate on doing something else where it matters.   All part of the game plan.


Dennis

Also, to answer the Pilum question, yes, 3 dice if not Disordered and standing still and no Impetus Bonus.

Dennis

aphillathehun wrote:
One question remains about rules clarification.  Someone said you'd maintain position rather than opp charge to get a few dice.  I guess I don't understand as I thought it was possible to opp charge with a group?  So you could bring your supports along in some way?

Yes, groups can opportunity charge but it isn't always that simple. Sometime it isn't possible to get every unit in the group on opportunity. Sometimes there isn't a target for other units in the group to charge so it makes no sense to go forward as a group. Sometimes one has to hold back other units on opportunity to see what evolves further. Impetus moves quickly and putting units on opportunity as the game evolves isn't automatic and requires judicious thinking.

As an aside, I only ever see counter charges when the unit in question is on opportunity. The consequence of failing the DT is generally too high to make it worth it.

The official EI5 wording is interesting

"...and before Red DECLARED a charge. In this case Red CP would not have got its Impetus bonus in the combat as it wasn't charging".

Which could be read either way - declaring the charge is the first mentioned state, actually charge moving is the second. i.e. If you declare that you will be charging a target 2 or so moves away then can they Opportunity charge and hit you without impetus OR can they opportunity charge you but because you have DECLARED that you will be charging you count as charging?

It becomes very important in some circumstances eg CP vs CM - the CM with a movement of 10 will almost always have the movement distance to Opportunity charge the CP before the CP can charge them as they only have movement 8. Thus medium cavalry become more effective than heavy cavalry in this type of melee. Is that really the desired effect?

I would happily accept this IF the CP player is hesitating and deciding what to do, it effectively reflects the CM's being decisive in the face of CP dithering.

But if the CP want to charge the CM from the outset (i.e. the commander is decisive and says "Get in there lads, double move including a charge for the last 7U") then they should be able to do so with full impetus bonus, the CM on Opportunity of course have the ability to Opportunity charge and thus gain impetus dice themselves.

This is assuming that the Units are facing each other. In the case of the Unit/Group on Opportunity being in a position outside the front projection of the Moving/Charging Unit, then it would very easily be able to Opportunity Charge the Moving Unit before it has a chance to charge. I'm just thinking outside the box. Counter Charging is of course different.

Dennis

I would agree with GG - if its purely a frontal issue - then I would vote for Impetus Bonus applying to the active unit as well as that on Opportunity charge.

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:The official EI5 wording is interesting

"...and before Red DECLARED a charge. In this case Red CP would not have got its Impetus bonus in the combat as it wasn't charging".  

Which could be read either way - declaring the charge is the first mentioned state, actually charge moving is the second. i.e. If you declare that you will be charging a target 2 or so moves away then can they Opportunity charge and hit you without impetus OR can they opportunity charge you but because you have DECLARED that you will be charging you count as charging? .

In Impetus one does not declare a charge 2 or more moves away from the enemy. The charge is declared in the movement phase that the unit is attempting to contact the enemy. While moving outside a charge declaration the unit on opportunity would opportunity charge. When responding to a charge declaration the unit on opportunity would be making a counter charge. This is all very clear in the rules. No confusion here.

Granicus Gaugamela wrote: It becomes very important in some circumstances eg CP vs CM - the CM with a movement of 10 will almost always have the movement distance to Opportunity charge the CP before the CP can charge them as they only have movement 8.  Thus medium cavalry become more effective than heavy cavalry in this type of melee.  Is that really the desired effect?

Yes, it is the desired effect. I disagree with your basic point. There is an interesting tactical choice that both players must make in determining their moves. Does the CP actually take 2 moves to get to the CM or 1? There are advantages to both. It partially depends on what he thinks the CM is going to do. In declaring a charge he does not have to commit to using his bonus movement dice. The CM player could decide to stand still and hope that the CP rolls a 1 on the movement bonus and be left high and dry disordered right in front of the CM. He could countercharge the CP but in this case he would be guaranteeing that the CP made contact with him (probably to his disadvantage.) Or he could evade back. This is the kind of tactical choices that makes Impetus fun to play.

You also forget GG to consider how the CM and the CP got into this position in the first place. Assuming that the CM was on opportunity in the first place it could have opportunity charged the CP when he came within effective charged range at 11U.

Opportunity in Impetus means something and it isn’t always easy to get. It means the unit in question has position on opponents approaching it and that seems fine to my thinking. Approaching a unit on opportunity takes some care.  Giving advancing units automatic impetus would take away part of the flavour of the game to my thinking and make it unnecessarily bland.

My thinking exactly GC. That's what I was getting at when I said it depended on the circumstances and if it did an Opportunity Charge or Counter Charge. Tactics for both sides to consider. That's what I like about Impetus.

Dennis