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» Punic war mini campaign
New rules in Advanced Impetus 2015 - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 21, 2024 2:03 pm by kenntak

» King David questions
New rules in Advanced Impetus 2015 - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 21, 2024 6:56 am by kreoseus

» First game of King David.
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» ECW based for Baroqe
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» Tournament rules and scenarios for Basic Impetus
New rules in Advanced Impetus 2015 - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 18, 2024 3:07 pm by dadiepiombo

» Routing at the Same Time
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» Warfare 2024 at Farnborough Nov 16th 17th
New rules in Advanced Impetus 2015 - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2024 8:12 pm by ejc

» My 15mm armies so far
New rules in Advanced Impetus 2015 - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2024 8:04 pm by Tartty

» House Rules - Impetus 2
New rules in Advanced Impetus 2015 - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2024 10:32 pm by ejc

Warfare 2024 at Farnborough Nov 16th 17th

Thu Nov 14, 2024 11:05 pm by ejc

Sorry for late notice anyone from forum welcome to join in on either day will …

Comments: 4

Salute 2024 Battle of Pharslus 48BC

Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:44 am by ejc

Forum members welcome to take part in battle of Pharslus Saturday 13th April …

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Ilipa 206BC Society of Ancients Battle Day

Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:54 pm by ejc

This year's SOA Battle Day is Ilipa206BC will be about a dozen games all re …

Comments: 10

Warfare battle of Cunaxa

Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 pm by ejc

Sorry for short notice we are putting on the above scenario on Saturday 11th …

Comments: 4

SELWG 2023 Thapsus 46BC

Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:29 pm by ejc

We will putting on the above game at SELG 2023 on Sunday 15th October. Forum …

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Colours 2023

Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:14 pm by ejc

Sorry for very short notice. We are putting on a game at colours on Saturday …

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New rules in Advanced Impetus 2015

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frazer
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Post by jeztodd Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:29 pm

Happy that you might want to tinker with the rules and can pick up the changes as they come out.

Think would be resistant to anything that makes the game "more fiddly" though .... and slows the game down. I think going through a longer check list of factors is where we came from in wargame rules .
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Post by dadiepiombo Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:38 pm

flank support may cause some more extra (but easy) calculation. But adding some more dice make the melee a little bit bloodier.
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Post by Aurelius Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:59 pm

Base depth has been of little importance so far in Impetus, but with the supported flank bonus it becomes significant. For the 25mm game the depth of an FP base is 2U or optionally 3U. If I've understood the proposal correctly, and assuming FP bases of 2U depth are in line to start with, then if an adjacent unit recoils 1U it will still support its adjacent friend. If it recoils 2U it will only have corner contact, and if 3U then contact is lost. So FP bases 3U deep would appear to be an advantage.

In the 15mm game an FP base is either 3U or optionally 4U deep, the two games will play differently, but still favour the deeper bases.

If the support rule was defined as being "at or within 3U" of the front edge of the combat unit, then base depth would again be irrelevent and the 15mm game play the same as the 25mm, at least in this respect.

Just an idea.

TD

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Post by dadiepiombo Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:20 am

wellI have most of FP on deeper bases, but this isnot the reason for the change Very Happy
I have done in thise way as they look better, but always suffered in case of interpenetration.

You have pros and cons now to have deeper bases.
At the end it is just 1U of difference, so much depend on the roll of the dice when you follow up or retreat.
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Post by frazer Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:05 am

IF base depth matters?? (which i agree it doesnt) then isnt it easier to say that the flanker counts if aligned corner to corner.

the being within 3U is fiddly.

best to try keep thing simple and straight forward. a line is a line when they are all in perfect alignment.

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Post by Nick B Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:38 am

Yes - I would agree with frazer. front corner to corner is much simpler to understand and avoids arguing about just in/just out distance.

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Post by dadiepiombo Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:48 pm

perferct alignement is about impossible at it lasts for a very few time. Troops move up and down and you have to manage to keep a line even if not perfect. Choosng if it is worth to pursuit (if you can choose) or not.
The advantage for deepr bases is very limited and compensated by other disvantages (interpenetration, attacks on flanks)
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Post by Gaius Cassius Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:20 pm

Yes, I agree with Lorenzo. Protected flanks is most easily represented by having supporting units touching the side of another unit and not the more exacting corner to corner method.
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Post by Jim Webster Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:36 pm

The problem with insisting on 'front corner to front corner' is that you move things closer to DBx. Not that I'm knocking DBx but the joy of Impetus is that with regards movement, conforming and all the rest of it, it isn't DBx and avoids all the problems with geometry.

I prefer that we just have sides touching

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Post by accard Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:49 am

The official amendments only show CL and S getting a +1 bonus for evading. For a B class unit this means they will not evade 1/3 of the time.
Seems quite harsh, I don't see how LH armies will cope frankly, especially agaisnt armies with any mounted capability. LH need to get within 15u to have effective fire, and enemy mounted will just make two moves and catch at least some of them.

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Post by dadiepiombo Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:02 pm

an error! immediately corrected, thank you for noticing! It is +2.
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Post by Gaius Cassius Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:57 pm

Wanted to say that we gave the new Impetus rules a try last night. Three very different armies, Lysimachos (Successor), Scandinavian, and Late French Ordonnance.

We really like the changes overall. We didn't see a lot of the change in CM, CL and CGL retreats happen but the rule change seems good to us.

With respect to evading we like the idea of the test. One question we did have was whether an attached general figures into the computation. Previously CM evading factored this in but in the modifications in the changed rule there is no mention of attached leaders. We think it should be included.    

With respect to secure flanks we really liked the idea but we feel there needs to be a lot more explanation and supporting rules to make this work. For instance, what about a secure flank from a unit that had advanced farther than the main unit but is still in contact with it on the flank. Does it count (we think so?) What about a large unit that has moved forward and the back unit of the large unit is in contact with the flank of the main unit? Again we played it as if it provide a covered flank.

We think the basing depth of units makes a difference. One of our group based his FP on 5cm depth instead of 4 cm depth. This could give him an added advantage. How to limit this advantage in depth seemed to us to be relevant. FP based on 6cm depth has a real advantage in this rule change.

Overall however we think covered flanks helps reduce the power of large units. And the added die for being better in quality adds up. We were wondering if A class troops shouldn't get a 2 dice bonus when fighting C class troops.
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Post by dadiepiombo Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:09 pm

Attached generals. Yes they counts. It is like a normal Discipline test, with 2 more modifiers.

Flank support. Probably more clarification will need in the future, but so far the explain your cases.
If there is a partial contact (side by side) the support counts.
For Large Units is is only the frontal Units to count. So if a Frontal Unit is in contact with a rear unit of another LU, there is no support.

I will prepare some diagrams anyway.

Deeper Units (basically FP) may have and advantage but this is somewhat balanced by other disvantages (interpenetration and flank charges).

I think +1 for different Discipline should be enough. But nothing is written in the stone until Impetus 2.
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Post by Tartty Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:14 am

Have missed a bit while away on holidays it seems.

I like the sound of most of it so far but yes maybe a few too many changes so close to Cancon Starkers I agree ....especially to spring on the newbies that have entered.

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Post by starkadder Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:24 am

I accept that Richard but the paradox is that, with newbies, they don't know the rules anyway so a few more don't count.

It was the old grumblers who cut up rough. I have a feeling they wouldn't have been much use at Cannae. Smile
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