Hidden Command, other player reaction

Hi. Seeking a clarification on the following.

Rule 9.1.4 states that:
"After the deployment of the Hidden Command, the opponent can make a free pivot to the face the nearest enemy OR perform an about face with any of his Units that is closer than 5H from the enemy that entered."


Two interpretations of this were put foreword in our group with some players thinking the 5H range is required to trigger any reaction and others thinking all units can react and the 5H range restricts how a unit can react.

I've tried to reword the rule for each interpretation.

The 1st is that it should read as:
A unit within 5H of an enemy unit which entered from the Hidden Command can: make a free pivot to the face the nearest enemy OR perform an about face.

The 2nd interpretation is:
Units within 5H of an enemy unit that entered from the Hidden Command can perform an about face. Other units can make a free pivot to face the nearest enemy.

Which of these, if either, is the correct interpretation?

In our last game we had a flank march that came on we played as per your option one thats how we read the rules in theory option 2 would allow your entire army to pivot to face nearest enemy.
What we had to be careful of was that although the greatest threat was from the flank couldnt pivot because already facing closest enemy so had to about face which wasn't the prefered option.

We play Option 1. I think the wording was clearer in Impetus 1. Only units that are within 5H of the flanking march can react to it with either a pivot or about face.

The wording of 9.1.4 supports v2

"face of the nearest enemy"
and
"closer than 5H from the enemy that entered"

are two different dynamics, measuring two different things.

Zippee is the point you are making supporting Gauis point that the wording could have been better or do you use v.2 if the latter as i see it would allow all or any unit in the army to pivot?
I know this is straying a bit from the original query can't really follow the logic of if already facing the closest enemy you can't pivot but can about face. In our game the obvious move was to pivot to try and protect both flanks so had to about face and expose flank to nearest enemy lesser of 2 evils.

<q> The wording of 9.1.4 supports v2

"face of the nearest enemy"
and
"closer than 5H from the enemy that entered"

are two different dynamics, measuring two different things. </q> 


Haven't you been chastened enough Zippee over the years to speak so categorically!   You and I have been on the losing side with several "heated" discussions on the old Forum with logic like the above. 

Gaius Cassius wrote:<q> The wording of 9.1.4 supports v2


Haven't you been chastened enough Zippee over the years to speak so categorically!   You and I have been on the losing side with several "heated" discussions on the old Forum with logic like the above. 

Didn't think I was being particularly categorical, just that this is what the wording mostly supports - and I wouldn't advocate veering from that without direction from Lorenzo in terms of applying RAW.

The simplest reading is that you can either:
a) pivot the unit that is closest to the Hidden Command to face the new threat
b) perform an about face with any unit that is outside of 5H from the Hidden Command

RAI is a different matter but I see no great reason to assume the wording is inherently wrong.  But its your table, interpret and apply as you see fit.

As usual RAW are hardly absolute - its clear that the opponent can do one of two things  (pivot OR about face) after the Hidden Command is deployed. Unfortunately of the three restrictions listed one appears before the OR (nearest enemy) and two after (any of his Units" and closer than 5H"). That "any of his Units" opens the door for doubt to creep in.

And I'd point out that the OP didn't quote the rule correctly, introducing their own errors into the phraseology, which doesn't help.

RAW wrote:  9.1.4 How the other Player can react
After the deployment of the Hidden Command, the opponent
can make a free pivot to face the nearest enemy
OR perform an about face with any of his Units that
is closer than 5H from the enemy that entered. These
movements cannot bring a Unit closer than 2H to any
enemy Unit.

Going back to Zippees 1st post if we accept they are 2 different things the 1st was:-
'pivot to face the nearest enemy'
On second posting has added words to this that are akin to the 2nd thread 'that entered'. To me this makes sense but accepting that this was Lorenzos intention would make it hard to refute that the line 'is closer than 5H from the enemy that entered' doesn't apply to both threads.

I would be very, very surprised if the rule allowed any unit on the table to respond to a hidden command being deployed. I agree the phrasing is a bit awkward but I think the 5H is meant to limit the extent of any reaction to a flank march etc..  My biggest support is simply that Impetus 1 was played in the way I describe above and I don't see any reason in the way Impetus 2 has been written to change it. With that said, I wouldn't have an issue if it turned out that Option 2 was the correct interpretation.

"Nearest unit" is a bit weak. I'm assuming (on no very good grounds) that the single free pivot is essentially permitted to the unit that is closest to the nearest deployed Hidden Command unit. An exact reading (and we know the dangers of applying strict grammar to Impetus) doesn't enforce that, merely that you pivot a unit to face the nearest unit.

So my reading of RAW, percolated through RAI is:
You may pivot the closest unit to face the nearest enemy unit of the hidden command OR about face a number of units within 5H. Choose one but don't come within 2H of the enemy.

but strictly RAW 9.1.4 says you may turn any unit you like to face the closest unit of the hidden command, OR about face a number of units within 5H of a hidden command. You can't come within 2H though.

On the whole I think it is safer to assume that the restrictions that follow the OR only apply to the second option (about face) not both.

The sense of the rule is to avoid you to place an hidden Command too close (less than 5H) to the enemy. If you do so (a choice or because there is no room), then the enemy can "react" with a pivot to avoid a flank/rear attack.

Thanks Lorenzo,
to clarify the question.

Can you confirm if a unit pivoting to face the nearest enemy has to be within 5H or not of the Hidden command?

It's clear that is the case for an 'about face' but it's not so clear for the pivot.

you have to turn pivotting on the centre of the frontage, if the enemy is already within 5U it probably will end within.

Thanks for clarifying Lorenzo

I still am not sure what the rule is?

Thanks Lorenzo but that doesn't clarify the question - do you have to be within 5U of the hidden command to conduct a pivot?

I have checked but in V2 there is no the pivot. Once you arrive at 2H from the terrain feature where there is the Ambush Marker the Ambush is revealed. It is up to the other player to be cautious enough (you see the marker) not ot be caught on the flank.

dadiepiombo wrote:I have checked but in V2 there is no the pivot. Once you arrive at 2H from the terrain feature where there is the Ambush Marker the Ambush is revealed. It is up to the other player to be cautious enough (you see the marker) not ot be caught on the flank.

Hmm not to argue with the author but:

Impetus II wrote: 9.1.4 How the other Player can react After the deployment of the Hidden Command, the opponent can make a free pivot to face the nearest enemy OR perform an about face with any of his Units that is closer than 5H from the enemy that entered. These movements cannot bring a Unit closer than 2H to any enemy Unit.

(emphasis mine)

It says "free pivot" quite clearly. Has this been subject to errata?

The question is about the "closer than 5H" restriction - does that apply to units making the free pivot or only to units conducting an about face? And how many free pivots can be made - just one unit or many?

Of course if the "free pivot" has been deleted its a bit moot!

I think Zippee Lorenzo is talking about ambushes, not flank marches.

Let's try this again.

When a command enters a the table by flank march who is permitted to react to it:

1. Any enemy unit on the table?

2. Any enemy unit within 5U of the entering unit(s)?