Improving the viability of mounted

I'm wondering if the topic of impetus loss by mounted has already been discussed enough.

I find that I rarely select mounted because it's too brittle. A single bad roll can render a 46pt CP 8/5 knight into a largely useless 7/0 point black hole, even versus FL.

I can understand losing impetus dice versus long spear and pike, but I'm wondering if cavalry would be more effective if a lost of VBU resulted in a corresponding loss of 1 impetus instead of all impetus.

In this example a CP 8/5/B could take one hit from shooting and just drop to 7/4/B. I think it might mean that more would be able to play horse armies successfully.

There has been some discussion on this. Lorenzo has floated a proportional loss of impetus as one option for Impetus 2. I personally am not a big fan of this for a couple of reasons. More complexity for one. And personally I see mounted units as vulnerable to being blown in a way not like foot.

I recently had a game of Late French Ordonnance versus German and my two units of Knights (VBU8/7) destroyed large sections of the German army. So they can be devastating. 7/0 unit with an attached general is bloody tough. A 8/4 mounted unit recently fought a Swiss pike block to a draw while the Swiss flanks were being pressed in.

Personally I could go with a two step reduction in impetus. One VBU loss would reduce impetus by half rounding down. So

6/4, 5/2, 4/0
5/2, 4/1, 3/0
8/5, 7/2, 6/0

i was thinking of something similar.

i find that it's the main reason i'm not interested in what in other games you'd call "medium cavalry". you can pay a lot for a unit with bow, only to find it's useless once it takes a single VBU loss, i.e. it's shooting is reduced, and is now largely useless for close combat.

I think making a change to the Impetus ruling would make heavy mounted types even tougher.
These units get on a roll and they're a game changer....seriously dangerous. Getting the one hit actually gives others a chance, take that away and you will see these armies rule the table and so unbalance the game.
Just my opinion.

Originally I was very much in favour of gradual Impetus reduction.

Equally GC's point is very valid,with a base VBU of 8 you need to score 4 hits on them to make them fail their cohesion test on a 5. That big VBU will always protect them to a large extent.

So, in the spirit of proposing solutions not just problems:

1) the tiered system - full Impetus to half impetus to zero Impetus.

Make the trigger points 1 step loss of main VBU (i.e. 8/5 becomes 7/3 becomes 6/0) or make them percentage of VBU dependant so the tougher units last a bit longer (eg 8/5 becomes 7/5 becomes 6/3 if the first trigger point is 75% of VBU then 5/0 if second trigger point is 66% - modify trigger percentages to your taste)

2) The double loss system

Each point of basic VBU lost also drops Impetus by 2 (8/5 becomes 7/3 becomes 6/1 then 5/0 etc)

This means the relatively cheap Impetus dice don't keep fully bolstering monster attacks from damaged units nor do they immediately decay. This is probably much easier than continually trying to remember where 75% or 66% of a given base VBU is).

3) Large unit conversion:

This is a latecomer to my thinking. It falls into line with what I like best about Impetus - decision and consequence. Want to push your A grade troops for 5 movement pulses? Go for it, but a huge risk of Disorder. Equally look at your Cavalry. You can have an option to deply them as shock troops in all their glory, be it 8/5 or 7/4 or whatever, or alternatively you can choose to deploy them conservatively by taking 2 off their main VBU and Impetus but they then effectively become a large unit. i.e. your big costly 8/5 guy can be deployed as a monster unit or you can decide you want some preservation of mounts or however you wish to think of it and deploy him as a 6/3 Large unit.

Either way you use current rules.

The unit decay would thus go

8/5 (13 attack dice), 7/0 (7 att dice)....
or

6/3, 6/3... until rear rank degrades when it becomes 6/3 front only, 5/0 etc

You can thus choose if you want a massive battering ram that you need to protect and unleash before it loses its Impetus or you can have a less deadly but still scary and far more consistent cavalry unit that isn't blown after it takes just one hit.

Your call up front and you must tell your opponent.

Make your decision and accept the consequences.

I don't like any of those options....sorry.
Like I said the thing is these 'shock' heavy cavalry units are already tough and on a good day unstoppable. You start fiddling around with that and it'll push everything else out of kilter.
Yes it hurts when your guard cavalry takes one hit and you've lost you impetus but hey screen them properly or keep them out of harm's way till the time is right.......'swings and roundabouts' can't have it all one way.

Tarty wrote:I don't like any of those options....sorry.
Like I said the thing is these 'shock' heavy cavalry units are already tough and on a good day unstoppable. You start fiddling around with that and it'll push everything else out of kilter.
Yes it hurts when your guard cavalry takes one hit and you've lost you impetus but hey screen them properly or keep them out of harm's way till the time is right.......'swings and roundabouts' can't have it all one way.

It would actually apply to everyone Tartty, your Impetus 2 hoplites get gradual degradation or whatever as well, rather than being up and willing for 10 seconds and then being flat for the rest of the game.

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:

Tarty wrote:I don't like any of those options....sorry.
Like I said the thing is these 'shock' heavy cavalry units are already tough and on a good day unstoppable. You start fiddling around with that and it'll push everything else out of kilter.
Yes it hurts when your guard cavalry takes one hit and you've lost you impetus but hey screen them properly or keep them out of harm's way till the time is right.......'swings and roundabouts' can't have it all one way.

It would actually apply to everyone Tartty, your Impetus 2 hoplites get gradual degradation or whatever as well, rather than being up and willing for 10 seconds and then being flat for the rest of the game.  

Hahaha ..... yeah right one or two dice ? ... big fizz !
This change would effect powerful hard hitting heavy cavalry units as they have the most to lose...turn them into super charged mobile wrecking balls.
I like it the way it is nothing to change here it's simple and elegant....it's also what Impetvs is all about in my opinion.

Bear in mind those big cavalry are usually C Disc so they are now down 2 dice vs A grade pike and longspears.

So the big grunty cavalry now get 8 dice vs a solo large unit of Macedonians who in return get 6 dice plus 3 for the second rank plus 2 dice for being A grade making it an 8 vs 11 combat and the pikeys get to drop their casualties from rank 2 and given they are hoplites they may well be in a phalanx type of thing and get another couple of bonuses for supported flanks...

Just a thought, we have substantially enhanced the infantry line in a way that is much harder for the cavalry to emulate.

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:
Just a thought, we have substantially enhanced the infantry line in a way that is much harder for the cavalry to emulate.

As it should be. Infantry are nowhere near as manoeuvrable as cavalry 'sticking' together should be one of their strengths.

yeah, infantry currently monopolise the battlefield. we play open tournaments 28s on big boy tables round here, and there is very little room for mounted. thing is, when you could buy a single CP 8/5 for heaps, or two large groups of passable long spear? i'm buying the latter.

and there are already large groups of german CP available. i've never seen anyone play them.

i'm inclined to think that the original idea of halving impetus along with VBU degradation might work. it means your typical CP6/3/B classical cavalry, or arabic cavalry might actually have a chance against it's traditional opponents.

infantry currently monopolise the battlefield

Strange, because in Italy we feel the contrary. Mounted are more fast, easier for them to conclude a game, while foot risk to be too slow to win in the scheduled time

dadiepiombo wrote:

infantry currently monopolise the battlefield

Strange, because in Italy we feel the contrary. Mounted are more fast, easier for them to conclude a game, while foot risk to be too slow to win in the scheduled time

Yes I would agree with that. More times than not it's the cavalry that win the day.

Personally I think the balance is about right in Impetus between foot and horse.  My proposal above was offerred in case changes were being considered (ie. keep it simple!)

I like the simplicity of the current system ... once impetus is lost it is gone. For me the gendarme CP units are still very strong.

Jez

Cool my avatar picture finally worked ! Fresh from my new Teutonic knights army - as you can work out I have a vested interest in keeping impetus for mounted BUT still happy with the current system.

Jez

What you have to remember is that if you're going to make knights stronger (as you will do by letting them keep their impetus when they've suffered casualties) you'll have to make infantry stronger as well.

So for example, if you want to refight the battles of the 100 years war, at the moment the balance between knights and bow is about right. If you change the rules on Impetus, you'll probably have to increase the power of the longbow, and at the same time either give far more infantry 'long spear' to rob mounted of their Impetus or put their factors up to give them a chance of standing up to mounted in the open.

I've done a lot of thinking about these changes and the problems come when you extrapolate them to other periods. Suddenly Parthian Cataphracts don't need to use Horsearchers to soften up Roman legionaries but just charge them on sight.

Jim

Oldentired's point Jim is that the balance between cavalry and foot is tilted towards the later. He recommends a rebalancing of Impetus that makes cavalry more effective. So in his thinking I don't there is a need to make infantry more effective.

It is annoying to go from 8/5 (13 dice) to 7 dice with one lucky shot. On the other hand, the amount of melee dice is often overrated in some people`s minds. A 7/0 unit is still very tough in Impetus.

I've played games with Marian Roman v Parthian. Good Parthian cataphracts hit with nine or ten dice. (6/3 or 7/3) With the modifications, assume they
lose one casualty they'll hit with seven or eight dice (Assuming you lose 1 impetus for each point of VBU) Whereas before with the same one casualty
they'd hit with five or six dice

The legions start at 6 with Pila so it was evenly balanced
Previously the Parthians wanted to get a casualty on the Romans, (no pila and a factor of 5) which meant coming in with 5 or 6 dice made it an even fight.
The change in losing Impetus for casualties means they have that better than even fight without bothering to inflict casualties on the Romans

It's a change that is going to change the balance of power between a lot of armies

The reason for changing the balance between mounted and foot is if you can show that the results of combats are 'historically' wrong.

Jim

I think you've hit it Jim.

Also the way things stand you think twice before committing expensive heavy cavalry...I like this element to them. If they're impetuous types then opportunity decisions have to be made early on in the battle. This all adds to the game I think.

If things were changed and all you had to worry about was perhaps losing one or two impetus dice on the way in then I think you lose another facet which keeps things interesting and dynamic.
That's not even bringing the game imbalance your talking about into the discussion.

Personally I think the balance between foot and horse works in Impetus..  However allowing units to keep a few extra impetus a bit longer wouldn't unhinge the game.

When we played Magnesia last year I had to raise the VBU of the Selecuid cataphracts to 7 to give them a fair chance against the Roman legions. Otherwise the Cataphracts didn't stand much of a chance prevailing on the Selecuid right flank as they did hisorically.

this conversation is hinging a lot of what they once upon a time called super-heavy cavalry (SHC). that's not so much of a problem, although i struggle a little with the notion that the loss of 1/7th or 1/8th of a unit of knights completely invalidates it's impact on the charge.

it's more of a problem when you're running 28mm troops at 350pt (a typical open competition points total. it's difficult to screen your cavalry, and medium or early knight cavalry is too likely to take a single hit from something like S javelin and then become redundant...

that said, those cavalry are much cheaper than the SHC, so perhaps it balances out.

I think that problem is that the change isn't just going to be for a certain cavalry type. It'll be for ALL troop types. We'd have to revisit the balance between Legions and Warband, (or anybody and warband for that matter.)
After all, if you only lost one point of Impetus for being hit, it might be possible to stop using warband in big units and take advantage of your greatly increased frontage.

Jim

Jim Webster wrote:What you have to remember is that if you're going to make knights stronger (as you will do by letting them keep their impetus when they've suffered casualties) you'll have to make infantry stronger as well.

Key point being that we have just made infantry stronger...

Sorry, you've lost me. The 'classic' system which hasn't changed has got a decent game balance which seems to produce historical results in battles.

Infantry have to be very careful with good shock cavalry about (and remember that if your infantry are 4/1 then 5/2 cavalry are good shock cavalry)

Shock cavalry are useful but have to be screened and can only expect to be used once so you've got to use them properly.

I'm not sure what changes we've made that have made infantry stronger

Jim