Rule 5.2 Group Moves and Rule 6.7 Defensive Fire

A group of 4 units charges two separate enemy units, which are not part of a group. Rule 5.2 Group Movement states:

A group movement action generates a single reaction (only one Unit or one Group can react to movement by a Group).

I take this to mean that only one of the two enemy units can attempt defensive fire (Rule 6.7) at the main unit in the ensuing melee. Is that correct?

The way its worded i would say you are correct. Seems a bit strange if it had been a group of 3 they could all react as a group but take the middle one out then only one can react! A bit strange not sure of the logic here.

Should have added this has cropped up several times in the past and we have reacted with just one unit.

Interesting. The defender could have two groups of two T units from two different commands separated by a fraction of space being charged by one large attacking group of 4 units covering the same space and only one of the two defending groups could offer defensive fire. I am not sure about this. We will have to consider this as in my group because I don't think this is how we play it. Now of course, one of the two T groups could try to evade as an alternative to defensive firing but of course evading is done by unit.

Gaius in that senario in our group it would be a case of you pays your money and take your choice which one do you want to react with. Maybe a case of following the rules to blindly. Hope lorenzo gives his rationale for this.

I am interested to see what Lorenzo says on this matter.

I confirm that only one Unit or Group can react here. BTW reaction is not automatic as it is pretty generous considering the historical period. If the Groups contacted are 2, then it simulates the impossibilty to react coordinated. Being split means lack of comunication.

How would a frenzy charge interact with 5.2? The group is activated as one but each unit is moved separately. Does that mean each unit actives a possible reaction from defending units?

How we play impetuous troops declare charge then defending group declare reaction then both test at same time ie frenzy test and defenders DT so if countercharge maintains defenders group inegrity. If react seperately to individual charges this could be lost. Intetesting point we may be wrong see what Lorenzo says

Maybe that's one of the disadvantages of being impetuous, as they cost -1 points in an army.

Lorenzo ruled earlier that units must test for evade at the charge declaration of an impetuous group and not after the frenzy test so it maybe ejc that you are doing it correctly. On the other hand, defensive fire is a conditions based response and only can only be performed when an enemy unit has come into contact with the firing unit. The question then is, when is defensive fire tested for? We do it at the beginning of each activated melee. Since frenzied units are coming in individually defensive fire is a response to that specific charging unit and not to the group activation. It seems to me that there could be a strong case for defensive fire being a response to each individual charge.

I follow your logic but take the example of 2 T units facing 2 impetuous units slightly offset and the fenzy test fails and decides to attack with the unit that hits both T even though it only just overlaps the 2nd T unit. If you then test both T units for defensive fire the 2nd impetuous unit can attack and not be fired upon not sure if i like that not overly realistic. If the over lapped T unit decides not to react to the 1st charge if 1st melee is drawn would then not be able to fire.

Is there any reason why the support T unit in the first melee cannot do defensive fire when it becomes the main unit in the 2nd melee? Is there anything in the rules that prohibits this? Under your scenario when the 2nd impetuous unit attacks it creates a new melee with this T unit and the fact it was a support unit in the first melee would not limit its ability to provide defensive fire as a main unit in the second melee. This is especially relevant if the two T units are not part of the same group. Otherwise one usually tries for the DF with both units in order to survive the initial charge and you take your chances with the 2nd.

As reactions are voluntary don't have to react with support T on contact. The risks of not doing so as i see it
1/ could loose 1st melee retreat be pursued again so reducing or losing abilty to DF effectively.
2/ 1st Melee could be drawn so when 2nd impetuous unit charges unable to try for DF as now engaged in melee.
3/ If T win 1st melee and pursue with both T units the situation might have meant no opportunity to DF.
The more i think about it when the 1st contact is made thats when all the defenders in turn test for DF and those that past fire. Although only one contact the others i think are regarded as moving as rules state that any impetuous troops caught before moving by pursuers still get there impetuous so seems it may ne more for ease of gaming they are left apparently stationary until moved into contact. This way all dsfending T will be given opportunity to fire just prior to 1st contact. Could be wrong

Question is could the support T unit in the example do DF when it is attacked by the 2nd impetuous unit if it chose not to react in the first melee? Once a unit is in melee it cannot fire so I am probably mistaken thinking that it could. But on the other hand DF is a bit different from other types of firing. We don't see this at all because normally you want all the DF you can get in the first melee. Holding back DF for a future possibility is usually not a good idea as you describe ejc.

I would play it that DF would not be permitted once the unit is already in melee.

kenntak wrote:I would play it that DF would not be permitted once the unit is already in melee.

Agreed. I think my speculations have distracted the conversation from the more essential question.

Suppose a 2 unit Group of impetuous CP declared a charge against two T units. The T units are not part of the same group even though they are base to base. A frenzy test is taken and the CP Group fails. Now each CP Unit must charge individually.

Question 1: When is the DT taken for the 1st CP's charge? I would presume at the time of the declared melee. I don't think the T has to declare its DF immediately at the time charge declaration. Technically the T unit could have attempted an evade so the CP charge is a potential charge. Had the T unit wanted to evade it would have had to make this declaration at the time of the charge.  

Only one of the T units can react. Let's assume that the CP loses the melee and retreats. Now the 2nd CP charges in and contacts both units. Can the other T takes its reaction test for DF?

In your example to me the answer is no the 2nd unit of T cannot react. I believe there is just one charge declaration and although the hit one after the other they are all committed to charge and are all moving. In your example when the 1st unit of CP make contact i believe if you wished the unit of T could react instead of the T contacted as it is also being charged. Not clearly covered in rules and hope Lorenzo clarifies this i could be wrong.

Sorry poor grammar i meant to say i think the unit of T not contacted if you wish could try to contact rather than the one contacted.

if I have not missed some points we have an impetuous group (CP) charging a T group.

When CP group declares the charge the T Group declares its reaction: Defensive Fire. The reaction is against the charging group.

A CP is impetuous they have to make a Frenzy test to see if they charge "in good order" or "one by one" (not coordinated).

Both parties make their test. The Frenzy and the Defensive Fire.

If both pass the test, each T Units will fire at his opponent (well it depends on how they are positioned but should be in most cases that way).

If CP Group fails the test and the T passes it, then much probably a CP unit will clash with 2 T receiving the Defensive Fire from both.