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Free Wheel for Impetuous Units  Empty Free Wheel for Impetuous Units

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:14 pm

In 5.3 an impetuous unit can make a free wheel at the beginning of their compulsory movement "but only in the direction of the closest enemy (except for Skirmishers or Units behind their own front line or Units within a BUA) .......".

The question at hand in our group is whether the impetuous unit can wheel towards the closest enemy unit in such a way as to avoid contacting it. How have people/groups been interpreting this rule (it is a bit vague in specifics)?

Thanks!
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Post by Scruff on Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:28 pm

Dont have the full rules, but I would expect that impetuous troops take one look at the enemy and want to kill them, not run past them...

But to your rules quote, it says "In 5.3 an impetuous unit can make a free wheel at the beginning of their compulsory movement "but only in the direction of the closest enemy (except for Skirmishers or Units behind their own front line or Units within a BUA"

That says to me wheel "only in the direction of the closest enemy" so that means point at said enemy, not wheel past the direction of the enemy unit

cheers

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Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:38 am

Just to add that we discussed this on the Old Forum a long time ago but Lorenzo left the basic question open in his comments (as far as I remember.) So the better question for us now is how are different groups playing this rule.
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Post by Zippee on Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:57 am

Gaius Cassius wrote:In 5.3 an impetuous unit can make a free wheel at the beginning of their compulsory movement "but only in the direction of the closest enemy (except for Skirmishers or Units behind their own front line or Units within a BUA) .......".

We subconsciously add "...in such a manner as to contact that enemy"

You either advance straight forward or straight towards the closest enemy.

The intent is clearly to contact enemy - trying to argue that you can wheel in that direction to artfully avoid enemy units is complete bo**ocks and falls afoul of the "Don't be a pr*ck rule" Very Happy
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Post by Tarty on Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:03 am

Absolutely the intent is to contact the enemy anything else is a total fudge.
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:05 pm

Just to clarify with those who answered, is this how your groups and the tournament competitions that you have been in understood the rule? That is, is your opinion based, in part, on how you've seen the rule used by others? One of our best and most informed players (and generally great guy!) is a bit stubborn about this so the more evidence I can muster the better.
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Post by Zippee on Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:17 pm

I can tell you that every single game I have played or witnessed has taken it to be read the way I said.

Not sure what proof that constitutes though Very Happy

I can only suggest that your "great guy" has a bit of a blind spot here for some reason - I can't imagine anyone being able to muster a coherent argument for why a bunch of hairy barbarians or pursuing nobs on horses looking for a fight would carefully manoeuvre so as to avoid one!

I could argue the rules aren't explicit and by dint of literal reading "the direction of" isn't the same as "directly towards in order to contact" but really I'd be laughed out of court and expected to pay costs. The intent is clear even if (as is often the case) clarity and rigorous definition has suffered in translation.

Oh and of course the wheel isn't free anymore it has to come out of your movement allowance as per AI
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Post by Tarty on Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:45 pm

Yes we've always played it like that also Gaius. Club games, friendlies and competitions.
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:23 pm

I think that is sufficient! Thanks!

We all have our stubborn points. I've seen a few of yours Zippee on the Forum (and I've usually agreed with you even when we've been proven incorrect!) Very Happy

It's a free wheel Zippee to the extent that it doesn't take an extra activation to wheel and then move!
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Post by Zippee on Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:06 pm

Hey, I wasn't criticising him for it, just acknowledging it.

Your support is, as ever, appreciated - the pints are in the mail. And I prefer to think of it not so much as being incorrect as being the avant garde of the next amendment Shocked

True but it was initially termed "free" because it was in addition to the move. Now it's not free, it's "integral" to the move. Very Happy
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Post by jeztodd on Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:50 am

I think on this as others have said when you select an army with Impetuous troops you are actively recognising that you will be losing control of them. I am facing this decision now for a forthcoming competition in the UK - should I play Teutonic Knights - lots of Impetuous CP or do I go for something like Italian Wars Venetian - still can have CP but not impetuous.

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Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:53 pm

Lorenzo was pretty clear on the old forum IIRC, the wheel must end up pointing at the target enemy, however much to my chagrin he also said it could be any point on the target not the centre, nearest or most direct route so you have plenty of scope for catching sides \ flanks etc - far too much for my liking :-(
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:01 am

As a follow up question. Imagine a FL warband 8U away from an enemy on direct line of attack. Suppose the player in question wants to wheel the warband to get the best line of attack possible and wheels 3U. The warband now doesn't have enough move distance to make contact on its first activation. That seems to go against the spirit of the impetuous rule. Would you allow it as a referee? Personally I don't have a problem with the warband getting the best line of attack but I do have problem if the wheel is used to avoid making contact with the closest unit when it is clearly able to do so.
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Post by Tarty on Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:35 am

If I was the 'god of war' (or referee for a minute ) this how I would rule it Gaius Wink

This is your example above. Yes I agree with you if the war band can contact with a straight move forward then really in the spirit of the impetuous rule he should do so I think.
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However if the situation is actually THIS...then I would allow a wheel.
Unit on the right is still within 8Us (contactable). The war-band chooses however to wheel 3Us and move 5Us forward towards the left unit....not making contact.
Free Wheel for Impetuous Units  Double_zpsj4ahijcd

This is of course leaving out all the other variables like charge bonuses, reactions etc ...just for a minute.
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:34 am

Thanks Tarty. I guess I am even more liberal than you on the impetuous wheel and move. I don't really have a problem in the first example of the warband angling a bit to get the best line of attack on the single unit. What I do have a problem with is the warband not contacting the enemy in this activation since it begins the move able to make contact without the charge move bonus. So angling to get the better line of attack yes, but no if it isn't able to contact because of the "free" wheel. Curious what others think.
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Post by Zippee on Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:52 am

If I'm the warband I want to be into contact this activation - I do not want to be left stranded within charge range of the enemy so they can contact me without all my lovely impetus dice.

So taking two phases to get a "better" contact is a risk to me in terms of disorder - most warband are C so that's a considerable risk. Even with a B it's no sure thing. A B with a commander then sure and why not?

I'm certainly not going to be deliberately shortening my move to avoid contact, hoping for a first activation next turn!

That said, if you're looking for a "legal" response then yes what you propose is not outlawed by the rules as far as I can see. I just think that in the vast majority of cases it is sub-optimal.


Last edited by Zippee on Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Tarty on Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:45 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote: So angling to get the better line of attack yes, but no if it isn't able to contact because of the "free" wheel.
Yes think we're all in agreement there in reference to that first example. As Zippee points out why wouldn't you want to make contact ? is beyond me also....unless there was some perceived advantage to it. Think this is what's at the centre of the debate the complete nonsense that impetuous types could or would do that.
Besides if you don't want to make contact we already have a rule for that don't we ? ...go on opportunity. Otherwise in we go boys !! Smile
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:42 am

I think there are a reasonable number of times that one doesn't want their impetuous units going into melee. A disordered warband charging into a CP unit for instance or a weakened impetuous CP charging into a pike block. Especially when the VD is building up and the command is getting close to breaking. I could see someone playing with the wheel in order to give their side an extra turn to survive. I haven't seen this done a lot in our games but I would like the rules to make it so that it can't happen.
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Post by Tarty on Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:09 am

No I can't recall it ever being done either.

I have seen  'they're no longer impetuous as they've reached 50% their VBU'... used plenty of times that's fine I've done it myself.

This dodgy avoidance by using the 'free wheel' is poor play I think and operating between the lines.
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Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:27 am

The wheel must be towards the nearest unit OR a move directly ahead so am happy with the second example
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Post by Zippee on Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:13 am

Gaius Cassius wrote:I think there are a reasonable number of times that one doesn't want their impetuous units going into melee. A disordered warband charging into a CP unit for instance or a weakened impetuous CP charging into a pike block. Especially when the VD is building up and the command is getting close to breaking. I could see someone playing with the wheel in order to give their side an extra turn to survive. I haven't seen this done a lot in our games but I would like the rules to make it so that it can't happen.

As has been said the mechanism for trying to control impetuous troops under these circumstances is to attempt to put them on opportunity.

I would not be happy if someone tried this ploy on me - and were I a tournament umpire I'd rule against it.

I agree that now that you've identified it the rules should block it off. I think that's relatively easily done by adding something like "in order to contact the enemy if possible" at the end of the free wheel clause.
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Post by dadiepiombo on Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:45 pm

as we are talking about Impetuous troops going "frenzy" the move is an offensive move, intended to reach the closest enemy (ignoring S as they can both evade and give no much glory)

The pivot is not compulsory. You can go straight ahead. By the way impetuous doesn't mean stupid and a forward movement exposing a flank is something that even indisciplined, without good leadership and bloodthirsty men can see as wrong.

According to amendments the wheel deducts movements. This is to force the player not to "manouvre" to much, but just get the good angle for a charge.
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:14 pm

Thanks Lorenzo for your comments. I don't have a problem with the free wheel assisting the impetuous player in getting a good angle of attack on the enemy.

What would you do, however, in a situation where the opposite player was using the wheel to avoid contacting the enemy? As I said above, I don't see this in our group but more by convention than anything the rules say.
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Post by dadiepiombo on Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:21 pm

the wheel should be to charge, so in a competition such a move (to avoid) would be not permitted.
If both players agree, and not in a competition, you can decide differently. I mean, the rule is intended to simulate the behaviour of "frenzy" men and reduce the possibility of the player to exercise a total control on them.
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:13 pm

Well I feel pretty good about this discussion. The matter is clear and definitive to me. I think this kind of detail would do well to be included in Impetus 2.
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