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» SHIELD WALL
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» Late Roman Army
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» Pursuit and failed rear attack 7.7.2
SHIELD WALL EmptyFri Jan 17, 2020 2:30 pm by ejc

PARAITKENE 317BC

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:17 am by ejc

Our group will be putting on the above battle at Cavalier 2020 on sunday …

Comments: 2

Basic Impetus demos @ Fall In

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:17 pm by GriffonsLair

Griffons Lair will be doing demos all weekend of Basic Impetus in our booth at …

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Battle of Harzhorn Salute 2019

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:13 pm by ejc

Our group is putting on the above at the EXcell Centre London being the SAlute …

Comments: 14

The Illiad = The Wrath of Achilles

Thu May 09, 2019 12:41 pm by ejc

We will be putting this game on at one of the Autumn shorws probably Colours or …

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The Battle of Apamea at Hotlead

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:50 am by Gaius Cassius

Hotlead is Canada's leading Miniature Wargames Convention. It is held in 2019 …

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BI2 tournament - 12 May 2018 - CANCELLED

Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:26 am by RogerC

EDIT I am very sorry, but I’ve had to CANCEL this tournament. I’ve …

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Post by Dennis Maxentius on Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:07 am

Just a quick question, is the old Shield Wall rule still in vogue or has it been superseded by the Closing Ranks rule? I have a game tonight (Normans v Saxons) and was hoping to get an answer before the 2 sides clash.

Cheers,

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Post by dadiepiombo on Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:29 am

it has been superseded by the closing rank reaction
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Post by Dennis Maxentius on Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:37 pm

Thanks for that Lorenzo, appreciate the reply. We played a game on Wednesday evening but used the Shield Wall from Impetus 1 and it made the Saxons almost untouchable. I will refight our battle next week, so now my Normans should have a better chance. Cool
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Post by ejc on Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:29 pm

Hope you had a good game. I have always lived in hastings and have refought that battle numerous times incuding at battle abbey. If we refight the battle just using the rules the Saxons dont move and the normans always get butchered. Have tried to bring in adjustments where the normans flee from the shield wall and the saxons have to test for pursuits but havent got it to work to well. We do lots of historical refights but cant quite get this to work and give a good game. Have you been succesful with this battle if so would be interested to know how you tweeked the rules? Regards eric

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Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:00 pm

The problem I think overall is that large units in Impetus are too strong. I don't know what can be done about it but it does distort historical results.
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Post by Dennis Maxentius on Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:30 am

Haven't tweeted the rules but should be having another battle in the next few days and I'll see what difference Closing Ranks makes compared to Shield Wall. I managed to break through one a flank but, as you say, I got butchered everywhere else. Losing an Impetus Bonus of 4 is rather detrimental to the Normans. Maybe they should only lose half their Impetus Bonus???? The only other way is to exploit a flank and press hard and hope you roll better in combat.


Last edited by Dennis Maxentius on Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:13 pm

Maybe the actual Saxon ratings at Hastings are too high. A thin line of Saxon Huscarls in front of a large throng of Fryd. Maybe they should be rated 5/4 C. That would still give the Normans a rough go but it would be a more balanced scenario.
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Post by Dennis Maxentius on Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:11 am

In my last game I used nothing but Norman Knights and Breton LC. I think that was my downfall. Both the armies are mine and we just did a Random selection of Army Lists I had prepared earlier. Next time I am running a more balanced Norman army (including those pesky peasants Cool ). Should be a better and more balanced game for both sides.
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Post by dadiepiombo on Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:33 pm

there will be an adjustment of VBU in the new army lists. Basically VBU of Large Units will be
6/4 elite (very rare)
5/4 standard
4/4 poorer

Of course in scenarios order of battle should be made with limited power units (differently from competitions where there can be different tasks)

As and aside, don't forget CP 2 now has a good mobility, including more flexibility on side movements. LU can move on the side up to 1H.
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Post by Dennis Maxentius on Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:38 am

Thanks Lorenzo. I didn't get to play another game yet but new VBU will make a difference.
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Post by Robert Gargan on Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:16 pm

Some heavy infantry such as hoplites, later Saxons and Vikings as a matter of practice, unless surprised, closed ranks and overlapped large shields. It is not a matter of practice in the rules. Given that all FP and all FL have the possibility of closing ranks I think some regard should be given to the higher probability of, say, hoplites closing ranks and forming a “shield wall” rather than peltast light infantry. In the case of the Anglo-Danish and Viking armies most of the units have poor discipline, which reduces the operation of closing ranks.
This is a very playable set of rules but I have played an insufficient number of games to make further comment and I would welcome other players’ thoughts on the above.
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Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:27 pm

What would you propose Robert be the effect of Shieldwall in Impetus for hoplite units? I can't think anything further to add to their benefits. They are currently a very powerful unit with the standard unit beings 5/5 VBU. They have long spear so are relatively impervious to cavalry and high Impetus infantry from the front. They gain a benefit on the firing table for being FP. In my opinion they already reflect the benefits of a "shieldwall" formation.
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Post by prapor on Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:16 am

dadiepiombo wrote:there will be an adjustment of VBU in the new army lists. Basically VBU of Large Units will be
6/4 elite (very rare)
5/4 standard
4/4 poorer

Looks good!
Can you please make something for Rome? Their Large Units useless because of high cost, you have to put VBU6 bases to back, lost good vbu and pilums, but pay full price. Have to use singles. Hard fights against all sorts of Large phalangs. But even worse gauls, which Large Units with upgrade cost only only 3 pts more same 5 vbu hastates, but with 4 more VBU! We don't know how counter that and romans loosing about 4 of 5.

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Post by dadiepiombo on Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:15 am

well with the new lists (and the right way to explain the formula is this is one of the thing that is taking time) you should pay for what you have.
So for example you can buy the rear rank a the final reduced cost.
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Post by prapor on Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 am

dadiepiombo wrote:well with the new lists (and the right way to explain the formula is this is one of the thing that is taking time) you should pay for what you have.
So for example you can buy the rear rank a the final reduced cost.

Problem that by rules you have to put better principes to back. So Large Unit fights with VBU 5, but you pay for back VBU 6 with pilum add cost. 5/6 unites are strange

We sometimes homerule that allowing put Hastates to back, but i don't like homerules at all

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Post by jorneto on Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:51 pm

In your example you have an LU made of a front rank of hastati and a rear rank of princeps. VBU's 5+6 with a total cost of 50pts (22+28).

In the new lists the maximum VBU for rear rank units will be 4. So, in the above case, the princeps used as a rear rank unit will have its VBU drop to 4 as will its cost.
The LU becomes a VBU 5+4, costing 36pts (22+14).

This makes LU's less powerful (for those that find them too powerful, this is a move in the right direction).
Being cheaper might also make more interesting the army design from lists with many (specially if compulsory) LU's in its options.

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Post by ejc on Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:46 am

In the original rules the alternative to large units was line replacement so romans would fight in single lines with possible opportunity to replace badly damaged front line units. However much we may like these rules a generic set of rules covering several 1000's of years can't cover every nuance. Like us you could experiment with line replacement, we have front line all units touching with a gap between the 2nd & 3rd(in larger games) lines behind in chequer board fashion. We've made it fairly difficult to do line replacement when front unit still engaged. On replacement we allow romans to use pilum. Hope Lorenzo brings something into rules to reflect this just think the romans deserve something different to just making them large units like other nations.

Getting back to original question 'Saxon Shieldwall' think that even without closed ranks as the bulk of the saxon army is select fyrd with long spears thus denying impetus to the miletes makes the Saxons virtually indestructible. Any saxon general worthy of the name would make sure he has secure flanks. I think however fair the points may be in this case it does give bit of a miss match. I know Lorenzo is changing the VBU/pts for rear rank of large units which will help a bit but one of my hopes for the knew army lists is to restrict further the use of large units (or even possibly treat them as one unit bit like Baroque but that would be a big change) as think large units against non large have to greater advantage even with the changes proposed.

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