disipline Test

There have been postings recently re discipline tests. The one test I cannot see on the play sheet is when an attached general dies resulting in tests for all his units. In our last Battle this happened, rolled 6 for cohesion test followed by another 6 so dead general and discipline for all his units. The generic modifier 'out of command radius' applies so with units of B & C class means 5/6 or 6 to pass this is brutal. Was this the intention? or would you add it to the exemptions for evaders & S.

Good question ejc.
History shows that loosing a general (or having him cowardly running away - I'm remembering Gaugamela -   ) can have a brutal effect.
I'm not surprised if a dead General make the modifier of -1 for out of RofC a permanent modifier …
Looking forward for the answer to this question.
Cheers

yes all Units must take the test counting as out of command as the General is dead. This may sound a bit severe but in the old version you could also lose the game with such a roll.

Thanks for both replies. I raised the question because in the rules under each section where a discipline test is required the rules go on state whether generic rules are ignored or whether other adjustments are to be used but under the section of dead generals the rules were silent.
In my game I thought it was good value to buy a brave general to get the extra 3 dice..hoped the mounted general would win quickly then turn on centre.he got bogged down for several turns by the time of his death his pike blocks had been severely mauled with rear rank on a couple one away from routing..lost several units on the discipline test so from winning position his command was one unit loss away from breaking. Good fun though. Lesson learned. Regards Eric

We found that dead generals have an even more devastating consequence than a DT. Once your command is demoralized (ie 33% loss of VD) a dead generals means your command can do nothing except continue ongoing melees. That means no movement, no shooting, no new melees. That is because units can only activate if they are in command and since there is no command radius without a commander they is no way for units to do so.

This seems a bit severe to me. I would have thought a unit in a demoralized command should be able to activate if they make a DT if their general has died.

Hello Gauis, are you sure if unit out of command cannot activate 2 7 2 command structure refers to loss of leadership bonuses and minus 1 in discipline tests. The unit needs to be activated to perform a discipline test such as reform from disorder and would have been out of command when activated if the minus 1 generic modifier was applied. Can't see anywhere else in rules which prohibits activation if out of command all I can see are the penalties if out of command. My apologies if I've missed something. Regards Eric

Eric
I think Gauis is referring to 8.0 victory conditions (page 49)
The alternative system.
A Demoralize command

a) Can be activated only if within the Command structure radius. No commander, no radius
, no activation

Ah yes I see it. So that brings us back to what's Gaius said dead general and third.of command gone can do nothing just wait to be picked off at opponents leisure to bring command done to 50 per cent can't even retreat

With Impetus we played the game with almost pure. We added a few minor house rules after playing hundreds of games. We've committed to playing Impetus 2 as written for at least a hundred games as a group before we reflect on the new system. Demoralized commands in one aspect of the game I am not totally convinced about.

Demoralized Command reflect the loss of Command Control under exhausted troops. The aim is also to keep the game fast. Of course if you are playing a scenario or if you have a lot of time to dedicated to a game, you should be free to change victory conditions.

I like the idea of Demoralized Commands Lorenzo. I also, think having a penalty at 33% loss is fine. I think that the penalty for units in a Demoralized Command with a dead general is too high. I would have thought making a unit in those circumstances roll a DT to move or fire would have been sufficient to convey the consequence of both happening simultaneously. Or perhaps an incompetent general (with all its problems) replaces the dead general on the following turn.

Our group are doing an historical relight at the salute show battle of harzhorn Romans v Germanic introduced logs / rocks being rolled down hill we have designed novel rules for this. Play testing tonight using some woods difficult ground. Rules state that leaving this ground does not cause disorder, but a lot of troop types are already disordered in the terrain. Does this mean when troops leave the terrain they are auto rallied from disorder and that the wording is more of a translation issue. Thanks eric

just reminding people that the rule on pg 49 is MORE than 33% (rounded up) to Demoralize a command

Good point stecal.

ejc
I think this means if troops disordered by terrain are sitting in but on the edge of the terrain and want to move out they could roll to rally before moving. If they pass and become ordered then moving out of the terrain will not disorder them again.

Thanks Roundie, Had assumed that troops disordered by terrain remain disordered while in that terrain so are you saying if troops don't wont to move or wish to exit terrain can reform. If that's the case if not moving can the test to reform as a group or if leaving terrain test as a group because wont be disordered on exit?

Yes, Roundie is correct. Units can reform in disordering terrain and as long as they don't move in it they won't disorder. If they leave disordering terrain in the first bound of movement in good order then they do not disorder.

One could test two or more units as a Group bit if one or more units of these are disordered it would test a Fragmented Group.

Thank you Gaius fully understand.

yes Gaius is a bit sevre but you have a demoralized command with no leadership. I think that in an ancient or medieval battle is is basically disbanded command. Can have melee if some Units are still in melee but I don't see such a Command able to take some sort of coordinate initiative.