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Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

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Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

Post by T13A on Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Hi

I'm looking at the above example of counter-charging. Is the end result of this example that unit B is charging and so gets its impetus bonus in the resulting melee and that unit A is not charging so it doesn't get its impetus bonus? Very grateful for some clarification.

Cheers Paul

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Re: Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

Post by Zippee on Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:36 am

Units get Impetus if they have moved into contact (and it's not otherwise cancelled by long spears or somesuch) - it doesn't generally matter what this movement is specifically.

I suggest you refer to Advanced Impetus Errata and Explanations not the original rules in isolation.
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Re: Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

Post by T13A on Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:08 am

Hi Zippee

Many thanks for getting back to me on this one.

Actually I have already looked through Advanced Impetus and cannot find anything that even hints that a unit gets it Impetus bonus simply by moving forward rather than having to declare a charge or counter-charge first as specified in the main rules. I'd be very grateful if you could point out to me where it says so. (Very happy to admit I might have missed it).

One thing it does specify in Advanced Impetus (Impetus Bonus in Opportunity Charge on page XI) is that: A Unit which is hit by an opportunity charge has the Impetus Bonus (if not cancelled by other reasons) if BOTH (my highlighting) conditions apply:
1) It declared a charge
2) It is contacted to its front.

In the example that I originally referred to unit A has not 'declared a charge' so I still do not see how it gets its Impetus Bonus.

Very grateful for any further thoughts.

Cheers Paul

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Re: Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

Post by Zippee on Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:13 pm

A move into contact IS a charge, that's part of the definition of "Charge".

So any movement that ends in contact gets Impetus because it is in effect a charge - it must be declared as such, even if only by potential.

A unit that has declared a charge gets the impetus bonus even if trumped by an opportunity charge (as you indicate) this doesn't require actual movement, the act of declaration is sufficient.

I haven't got the book with me so can't recall the example you're referencing. It sounds an odd situation as you can only counter-charge a unit that is charging, so by default both should get Impetus.

The bottom line is that if a unit has not declared a charge, is not pursuing or otherwise moving into contact, then it shouldn't get its Impetus. It also can't be the target of a counter-charge . . .

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Re: Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:25 am

T13A wrote:Hi

I'm looking at the above example of counter-charging. Is the end result of this example that unit B is charging and so gets its impetus bonus in the resulting melee and that unit A is not charging so it doesn't get its impetus bonus? Very grateful for some clarification.

Cheers Paul

Paul,

think of it broadly as "if a fresh unit is moving forward into contact it gets impetus" and then check for weapon (longspear or pike vs mounted for instance) or terrain modifiers (eg CP in rough terrain) to see if there is an overriding reason for it NOT to have impetus.

That covers most situations I can think of including followup after melee, if contact is reestablished then the unit moving forward has impetus, the retreating unit does not etc.

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Re: Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:47 pm

Paul, you need to read example 4 again. In example 4 B Opportunity charges A not Counter Charges A. Big difference in the rules. Practically speaking A needs to move twice in order to contact B. Sometime during A's first move as he gets closer to B, B can interrupt A's move with an Opportunity Charge. In that case A immediately stops and B charges and contacts A. B gets impetus but A does not. If for some reason B decides not to charge on A's first move but waits for A to charge on his second move (not uncommon in Impetus because one might be inclined to hope that A disorders from his second move) then B could automatically counter charge A and both units would get impetus.
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Re: Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

Post by T13A on Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:04 pm

Hi

Many thanks for all the further comments.

Gaius, I am slightly confused, because I totally agree with your interpretation (!) in that in the resulting melee (of the example) unit B gets Impetus bonus but unit A does not. Which is what I thought I was suggesting in my original query but I think you put it more clearly. However I'm not sure Zippee and Granicus see it this way.

Cheers Paul

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Re: Counter-charging 5.9.1 page 28, example 4

Post by Zippee on Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:31 pm

Not at all, if GC's description is correct and A is charged whilst moving then A does not get Impetus.

As I said above you get Impetus if you move into contact. Each Move Action taken by a Unit is a separate thing not a continuity of a single movement.

Therefore A's first Move Action is just a move - it cannot be a charge because it does not contact the enemy, nor can it be a declared charge because it could not reach the enemy (sure it may be the player's intent to charge the enemy but that doesn't make this Move Action a charge).

This is the basis of one the most common decisions in Impetus  - declare a charge with charge bonus movement and risk falling short disordered, or move closer and risk an opportunity charge forestalling your attack.

On the whole losing your Impetus Bonus is far less critical than being caught disordered. And this whole interaction is at the heart of CP knight v CM Ghulam and important to all impetuous troops.
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