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Updated Pictish Army List

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Updated Pictish Army List

Post by Brighouse on Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:49 pm

Hi,
I have being looking at splitting the Pictish army lists over two periods to reflect the different troop types and the range of allies.
Let me know your views
Regards
Andrew

Pictish Early 250A.D.-499 A.D
1-3 CGL Chariots* 10 4 1 B 3 17 various weapons
2-10 CL Cavalry* 12 3 1 B 2/3* 21 Javelin
12-30 FL Warriors* 8 4 1 C 2/3* 14 (10) Long spear
0-8 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
6-12 S Archers or Crossbowmen  8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B/Crossbow B
0-4 FL Attacotti 8 4 4 C 2 12 (9) Impetuous
0-6 FL Caledonian Warriors 8 4 1 C 2 14 (10) Javelin

Pictish Late 500A.D-876 A.D
1-3 CM Cavalry * 10 5 2 C 3 21 Javelin
2-10 CL Cavalry* 12 3 1 B 2/3* 21 Javelin
12-30 FL Warriors* 8 4 1 C 2/3* 14 (10) Long spear
0-8 S Javelin men 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
6-14 S Archers or Crossbowmen  8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B/Crossbow B

0-1 Saxon Allies        
2-4 FP Nobel Warriors* 5 5 3 C 2/3* 18(14) Impetuous PBW
4-8 FP Warriors  5 4 1 C 1 9(7) Long Spear
0-2 S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
0-2 S Javelin men 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

0-1 Scot (Dál Riata)-Scotti (Irish) Allies
0-4 CGL Chariots* 10 4 1 B 3 17 Various weapons
0-4 FP Fianna or Diberga 8 5 3 C 3, Impetuous
2-6 FL Warriors 8 4 1 C 1 14 Javelin
0-1 S Slingers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Sling

0-1 Northumbrian Allies
2-6 FP-Herd & Selected Fyrd (*) 5 5 2 C 2/3 17(13) L. Spear/Shieldwall
0-6 FP-Great Fyrd 5 4 1 C 1 9(7)
0-1 S-Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short Bow B
0-1 S-Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling
0-2 S-Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin

Notes and options. Their name probably derives from the Latin pictus, or painted, after the tattoos they wore.
In the 3rd Century they began to replace and absorb the Caledonians and started raiding over Hadrian’s Wall.
You can divide the military development in to 2 periods,
Early, Picts, Caledonians, Attaccotti mercenaries and chariot use.
Late Increasing Pictish raids into Britain along with various allies/mercenaries, Scots-Irish, Saxons, Northumbrians and CM cavalry replacing chariots.
The last king of the Picts was Kenneth's son Constantine who died in 876, probably killed fighting against a Viking army which had come north from Northumbria in 874. According to the king lists, he was counted the 70th and last king of the Picts.
You can upgrade Chariots and that include Generals to VBU=5. The new cost is 21 points per Unit Picts and Scots –Irish
Warriors can form Large Units.
You can upgrade up to 1/3 deployed Warriors to:
FL Veteran warriors* 8 5 1 C 2/3* 18 Long spear
FL with Long Spear nullifies the Impetus bonus of mounted troops.
Attacotti and Caledonians must form large units
In the Late list you can upgrade up to 1/2 deployed CL to Veteran cavalry  VBU=4. The new cost is 24 points per Unit
Notes for Saxon Allies:
Warriors can be provided with mounts at an additional cost of 1 pts per Unit.
Mounts allow these troops to move 10U (per phase) in their first activation.
You can upgrade to VBU=6 and I=3 FP Units including a General (not if incompetent or coward). Final cost 23pts per Unit. FP can form Large Units with Unit of the same kind.
Notes and Options for Scot-Irish
You can upgrade Chariots
that include Generals to VBU=5. The new cost is 21 points per Unit.
Fianna or Dilberga can form large units
Notes and Options for Northumbrian Allies
You can upgrade to VBU=6 and I=2 FP Units including a General (not if incompetent or coward). Final cost 23pts per Unit. FP can form Large Units with Unit of the same kind.
Further Development  Notes
The Picts left no written records and archaeological finds are sparse so most of the information about how the Picts were armed is gleaned from the various engraved stones that show battle and hunting scenes along with entries in English and Irish chronicles recording the results of battles.
Three things that are mentioned in some of the source materiel interpreting the carvings on the stones in the later period are.
1, The later Pict spear armed units may have operated in close formation with a type of shield wall this being a precursor to the Schiltron used in later Scots army’s .
FP  Infantry 5 4 1 C 2 12 Long spear, if shield wall as well 15pts.

2, The rear ranks were armed with a javelin or throwing spear like a Saxon Angon for use just before contact. This is a more contentious proposal but is supported by some of the engravings showing the front two  ranks with long spears and the  rear ranks armed with a shorter  spear and the enemy killed by a thrown spear.
This could be covered by the rear block of a large unit armed with javelins and add 2 dice on first contact.

3, Some elements of the spear block were armed with a sword and small shield to exploit gaps in the enemy lines, was this a formal organisation of just artistic licence by the engraver at the time?






List of Sources
Extra Impetus 2        Lorenzo Sartori
Basic Impetus 2        Lorenzo Sartori
Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066        Ian Heath
The Third Book of Hosts 130BC- 471AD        Colin Froud
The Shock of Impact Army Lists        M Bussey & IS Beck
FOG Wolves from the Sea        Richard Bodley Scott
WRG Army Lists 55B-1000AD Phil Barker
Dark Age Warrior Lists Four Horsemen Enterprises LLC
DBM Army Lists                Phil and Sue Barker
Meshwesh Army Lists        Washington Grand Company
Pictish Warrior 297AD-841AD Paul Wagner
Battles of the Dark Ages Peter Marren
The Age of the Picts        W.A. Cummins
The Pictish Conquest        James E. Fraser
Celt and Saxon Britain Peter Berresford Ellis
The Picts and the Scots at War Nick Aitchson
Not forgetting Wikipedia
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Re: Updated Pictish Army List

Post by Jim Webster on Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:31 am

I might have missed where you included it but Northumbrian allies can only be used with Later Picts

I'd also ask whether the Scot allies would still have chariots when the Picts had abandoned theirs? So I'd restrict their Chariot use to when allied with early Picts and have them Chariotless when with later Picts

The infantry formations discussion is tricky. As far as I know we have one horseman riding up to three infantrymen
Some scholars have argued that the three infantrymen represent a formation in three ranks, others that it represents three men.





So Personally I'd be wary of drawing too much from it
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Jim Webster reply

Post by Brighouse on Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:20 pm

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the comments.
When I started one of things I considered was dividing the period into 3 sections E, M, L to allow some additional flexibility in troop types along the lines of the ‘The Third Book of Hosts’ list as some troop type did not fit into the time line but I opted for two periods for simplicity and to keep in style of the Impetus lists as they don’t have a lot of period divisions.
1,  The Attacotti fought for the Scots -Irish as well as the Picts and Romans until around 450AD when they disappeared as a tribe or were just absorbed into the Pictish nation . To get round this I thought the Irish get the Fianna or Diberga as an impetuous troops class so they don’t lose out, not perfect but keeps it simple.
2, It seemed odd having Irish chariots running around the battle field until 850 AD when even the Picts had given up on them before 500AD. A lot of lists include Irish chariots until quite late on so I did a bit of research and it seems they were in use until 900AD, this is supported by written evidence from Irish Monks and some engraved stones dated to 900AD.
Benaid Cú Chulaind omnae ara ciund i sudiu + scríbais ogum ina taíb. Iss ed ro boí and: arná dechsad nech sechai co ribuilsed err óencharpait. Focherdat a pupli i sudiu + dotíagat día léimim ina carptib. Dofuit trícha ech oc sudiu + brisiter trícha carpat and. (TBC 827-831) - "Cú Chulainn felled a tree there and wrote an ogam inscription on it. It read: no one should pass by it, unless a warrior in his chariot had leapt it. They set up their tents there and begin jumping with their chariots. Thirty horses stumbled and 30 chariots were broken."

Ahenny High Cross dating approximately to the 9th century AD
I am not sure why they hung on for so long in Ireland maybe the horse stock was not strong or durable enough to carry a warrior or it was just more impressive driving the equivalent of a brightly painted Dark Age McLaren.
Pictish infantry with a throwing weapon, Yes or No?
The evidence for or against depend s on how much weight you give to the images on the carved stones, was the engraver showing us an exact representation with the various spear lengths, types of spear head and positions with the longest spear at the front and the shortest are the back which is the case on both panels or was it just artistic licence.
I have added a line to the Birsay panel to show the relative spear lengths and filled in the spear in the head of the unfortunate Northumbrian soldier on the Aberlemno panel which at that angle must have been thrown.


I have not got a definite answer but it’s a good topic and it would give the Picts an interesting unit.
Northumbrian Allies
Yes they are in the late period as they had alliances secured by marriage with the Picts at times but killed each other quite a lot at other  times , its all fun it the Dark Ages .
P.S.  Don's seem to be able to get my pictures to load Sad , I will have a play with the file size not sure what the limit is?
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Re: Updated Pictish Army List

Post by Jim Webster on Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:30 am

I think that many historians assume that later chariots were transport rather than combat vehicles. Whilst we hear of them in use in Ireland, the Irish don't seem to have used them abroad, or in Scotland.

The problem with the Attacotti is that we haven't really got a clue who they were. Ironically we know more about their career within the Empire as Auxilia Palatina than we do about where they actually came from.
So having some Impetuous infantry is easily argued. Later the Scots get 'Galwegans' so there was obviously a source Very Happy
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Re: Updated Pictish Army List

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:16 pm

My only comments would be the lists look fine - the only "super" unit being the 5-2 CM with Javelin. I'm not sure if that will play well - I would confidently expect they will get abused as super CL. I know bugger all about how they fought but if they are better quality javelin armed non contact cavalry I think they could be better represented as CL? If they are more prone to contact would a better option to give them a thrown contact weapon (pilumesque) similar to the Thracian CM?
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Re: Updated Pictish Army List

Post by Brighouse on Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:46 pm

Hi Jim my pictures at last Smile


Filled in the spear/javelin in the head of the unfortunate Northumbrian soldier on the Aberlemno panel which at that angle must have been thrown.


Birsay panel to show the relative spear lengths and the different spear head
" />
Ahenny High Cross from Ireland dating approximately to the 9th century AD


Cyrus as regards the CM cavalry I had armed them with a Javelin as it seemed the norm from most of the army lists but I have just had a delve in to The Picts and Scots at War and Nick Aitchison  thinks the evidence from the images of cavalry support a thrusting spear due to the spear head shape and how it is held and not a javelin so I will alter the list .
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Re: Updated Pictish Army List

Post by Brighouse on Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:48 pm

" />

Ahenny High Cross from Ireland dating approximately to the 9th century AD
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Re: Updated Pictish Army List

Post by Jim Webster on Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:28 pm

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:My only comments would be the lists look fine - the only "super" unit being the 5-2 CM with Javelin. I'm not sure if that will play well - I would confidently expect they will get abused as super CL. I know bugger all about how they fought but if they are better quality javelin armed non contact cavalry I think they could be better represented as CL? If they are more prone to contact would a better option to give them a thrown contact weapon (pilumesque) similar to the Thracian CM?

I think they'd be banned under Impetus 2 because they'd just machine gun enemy cavalry that tried to charge them.

I think as a rule of thumb CM don't get javelin
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Re: Updated Pictish Army List

Post by Brighouse on Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:03 pm

If that is the case it will be a sad day for my late medieval Irish Heavy Cavalry
2-8 CM - Anglo-Irish Heavy Cavalry 10 5 2 C 2 21 Javelin
Crying or Very sad
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Updated Pictish V2

Post by Brighouse on Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:39 pm

Altered the CM cavalry, removed javelin and added an upgrade for general with unit,corrected points cost for Fianna or Diberga and added a sling unit to Scot-Irish to balance unit numbers.
Pictish Early 250A.D.-499 A.D
1-3 CGL Chariots* 10 4 1 B 3 17 various weapons
2-10 CL Cavalry* 12 3 1 B 2/3* 21 Javelin
12-30 FL Warriors* 8 4 1 C 2/3* 14 (10) Long spear
0-8 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
6-12 S Archers or Crossbowmen  8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B/Crossbow B
0-4 FL Attacotti 8 4 4 C 2 12 (9) Impetuous
0-6 FL Caledonian Warriors 8 4 1 C 2 14 (10) Javelin
Pictish Late 500A.D-876 A.D
1-3 CM Cavalry * 10 5 2/3* C 3 18 Spear
2-10 CL Cavalry* 12 3 1 B 2/3* 21 Javelin
12-30 FL Warriors* 8 4 1 C 2/3* 14 (10) Long spear
0-8 S Javelin men 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
6-14 S Archers or Crossbowmen  8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B/Crossbow B

0-1 Saxon Allies        
2-4 FP Nobel Warriors* 5 5 3 C 2/3* 18(14) Impetuous PBW
4-8 FP Warriors  5 4 1 C 1 9(7) Long Spear
0-2 S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
0-2 S Javelin men 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

0-1 Scot (Dál Riata)-Scotti (Irish) Allies
0-4 CGL Chariots* 10 4 1 B 3 17 Various weapons
0-4 FP Fianna or Diberga 8 5 3 C 15, Impetuous
2-6 FL Warriors 8 4 1 C 1 14 Javelin
0-2           S Slingers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Sling

0-1 Northumbrian Allies
2-6 FP-Herd & Selected Fyrd (*) 5 5 2 C 2/3 17(13) Long Spear/Shieldwall
0-6 FP-Great Fyrd 5 4 1 C 1 9(7)
0-1 S-Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short Bow B
0-1 S-Slingers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Sling
0-2 S-Javelinmen 8 2 0 C 1 7 Javelin
Notes and options. Their name probably derives from the Latin pictus, or painted, after the tattoos they wore.
In the 3rd Century they began to replace and absorb the Caledonians and started raiding over Hadrian’s Wall.
You can divide the military development in to 2 periods-
Early, Picts, Caledonians, Attaccotti mercenaries and chariot use.
Late, Increasing Pictish raids into Britain along with various allies/mercenaries, Scots-Irish, Saxons, Northumbrians and CM cavalry replacing chariots.
The last king of the Picts was Kenneth's son Constantine who died in 876, probably killed fighting against a Viking army which had come north from Northumbria in 874. According to the king lists, he was counted the 70th and last king of the Picts.
You can upgrade Chariots and that include a General to VBU=5. The new cost is 21 points per Unit for Picts and Scots –Irish
You can upgrade CM Cavalry that include a General to VBU=6. The new cost is 24pts.
Warriors can form Large Units.
You can upgrade up to 1/3 deployed Warriors to:
FL Veteran warriors* 8 5 1 C 2/3* 18 Long spear
FL with Long Spear nullifies the Impetus bonus of mounted troops but no depth bonus.
Attacotti and Caledonians must form large units.
In the Late list you can upgrade up to 1/2 deployed CL to Veteran cavalry VBU=4. The new cost is 24 points per Unit.
Notes for Saxon Allies:
Warriors can be provided with mounts at an additional cost of 1 pts per Unit.
Mounts allow these troops to move 10U (per phase) in their first activation.
You can upgrade to VBU=6 and I=3 FP Units including a General (not if incompetent or coward). Final cost 23pts per Unit. FP can form Large Units with Unit of the same kind.
Notes and Options for Scot-Irish
You can upgrade Chariots
that include Generals to VBU=5. The new cost is 21 points per Unit.
Fianna or Dilberga can form large units
Notes and Options for Northumbrian Allies
You can upgrade to VBU=6 and I=2 FP Units including a General (not if incompetent or coward). Final cost 23pts per Unit. FP can form Large Units with Unit of the same kind.
Further Development  Notes
The Picts left no written records and archaeological finds are sparse so most of the information about how the Picts were armed is gleaned from the various engraved stones that show battle and hunting scenes along with entries in English and Irish chronicles recording the results of battles.
Three things that are mentioned in some of the source materiel interpreting the carvings on the stones in the later period are.
1, The later Pict spear armed units may have operated in close formation with a type of shield wall this being a precursor to the Schiltron used in later Scots army’s .
FP  Infantry 5 4 1 C 2 12 Long spear, if shield wall as well 15pts.

2, The rear ranks were armed with a javelin or throwing spear like a Saxon Angon for use just before contact. This is a more contentious proposal but is supported by some of the engravings showing the front two  ranks with long spears and the  rear ranks armed with a shorter  spear and the enemy killed by a thrown spear.
This could be covered by the rear block of a large unit armed with javelins and add 2 dice on first contact.

3, Some elements of the spear block were armed with a sword and small shield to exploit gaps in the enemy lines, was this a formal organisation of just artistic licence by the engraver at the time?






List of Sources
Extra Impetus 2    Lorenzo Sartori
Basic Impetus 2    Lorenzo Sartori
Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066    Ian Heath
The Third Book of Hosts 130BC- 471AD   Colin Froud
The Shock of Impact Army Lists    M Bussey & IS Beck
FOG Wolves from the Sea    Richard Bodley Scott
WRG Army Lists 55B-1000AD    Phil Barker
Dark Age Warrior Lists    Four Horsemen Enterprises LLC
DBM Army Lists            Phil and Sue Barker
Meshwesh Army Lists    Washington Grand Company
Pictish Warrior 297AD-841AD    Paul Wagner
Battles of the Dark Ages    Peter Marren
The Age of the Picts    W.A. Cummins
The Pictish Conquest    James E. Fraser
Celt and Saxon Britain    Peter Berresford Ellis
The Picts and the Scots at War    Nick Aitchson
Not forgetting Wikipedia
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