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Hi Gents

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Shooting By Group (AI ruling)

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Shooting By Group (AI ruling)

Post by Zippee on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:23 am

Advanced Impetus 1.7 wrote:
There is no group shooting in Impetus. If you move (activate) as a Group, units that are part of that group cannot fire. If the player wishes a unit to fire the player must activate that unit as a single unit, not as part of a group.

I appreciate this ruling was brought in to clarify that you cannot shoot as a group (ie adding all a group's dice together for a shot) but as written it hamstrings horse archers, javelinmen and such.

Consider a group of 3-4 mamelukes or other heavy CM horse archers facing an enemy line - they advance, looking to shoot at short [PB if they can make it happen] range and then charge whilst the enemy are disordered. However they can't do this and maintain formation due to this ruling.

So they have to shoot and charge individually taking all the disadvantages due to individual units hitting an enemy formation (support and flank bonuses).

However their enemy - even if impetuous CP have no problem maintaining a formation and charging to contact as a unified formation.

Am I the only one who things this is an unanticipated result of this clarification and not an intended result. It badly skewed the result of a recent end of campaign 1000pt crusader v ayyubid game and left me not a little salty (I was the ayyubid left wing naturally  Very Happy )


Last edited by Zippee on Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : to clarify the reason for the rulings introduction)
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Re: Shooting By Group (AI ruling)

Post by stecal on Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:17 pm

Perhaps fixed by giving heavier cavalry with bows & shock tactics something like the pilum rule as part of a shoot & charge move?

Allowing group firing will just make CM with bows cost even more.

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Re: Shooting By Group (AI ruling)

Post by Zippee on Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:27 am

It isn't about group shooting, it's about group activation.

Currently we can activate a group, charge and then conduct melee by individual units. is it really so different to allow a group to activate, conduct shooting by individual units and then move / charge and conduct melee as individual units?

Note that this ruling wasn't introduced to stop group shooting in this manner, it was introduced to clear up the mistaken ruling that some people had misread to allow group shooting as a group - adding all the dice of a group together.

So I don't see why it should change the CM cost - they didn't get cheaper when it was introduced after all! And the group activation and independent shoot was legal then.

Indeed I can see that a PB pistols or pilum type rule might be the way of Impetus II, although that doesn't actually allow you the judgement to see how effective the shooting is - you commit to the charge before evaluating the shooting impact. It's not like the bows were used in close combat itself so I'm not convinced its a very historically accurate representation.

You'll recall that I heartily dislike the pilum rule as pandering to Roman propaganda Very Happy
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Re: Shooting By Group (AI ruling)

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:14 am

Another thing I confidently expect to change in v2.

I would disagree with your interpretation as to why this rule exists - I've never seen anyone suggest group shooting involved adding all the dice. The rule is there as a designers decision to smooth over the added complications group activations introduce, particularly in relation to reaction fire and group moves. The overall effect is that bow armed CM groups must choose to concentrate on one thing in the turn they are in a position to charge or shoot - either shoot OR charge. It is artificial, but it does work from a design viewpoint.

I'm sure this will change in v2, and thats due "soon"
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Re: Shooting By Group (AI ruling)

Post by Zippee on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:11 am

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:Another thing I confidently expect to change in v2.

I would disagree with your interpretation as to why this rule exists

The overall effect is that bow armed CM groups must choose to concentrate on one thing in the turn they are in a position to charge or shoot - either shoot OR charge. It is artificial, but it does work from a design viewpoint

That's good to know.

I remember many a post on the old forum asking precisely how 'group shooting' worked and this ruling emerging as a sledgehammer to stop the misinterpretation. it may have become something else.

Your comment on design goal is slightly worrying as I don't think this should be a turn-to-turn decision at the granularity of Impetus.
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Re: Shooting By Group (AI ruling)

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:01 pm

I was surprised when the ruling came out that units can not activate as a group and shoot individually at the end of the group move. After a few years of playing it the other way I am now agnostic about it. Probably the way it is currently working makes things a bit simpler. Interestingly, I agree with Cyrus' rationalization so I am a bit surprised to see this rule change.
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